Further Maths A level

[Stowickthevast]

Just looking for views. Dd1 is currently in y10 and thinking about A levels. She definitely wants to do Maths and is considering Further Maths. She's just done mocks and was on the boundary of 8/9 for Maths. At her current school, everyone starts off doing 4 A levels and then drops one or does an AS at the end of Y12 depending on the subject, apart from FM which they carry through to A level.

I don't think she will end up doing Maths at uni. She's currently thinking of architecture, but that may well change. The other subjects she's considering are German, art and English. Personally I think she'd be better off doing German, Art, English & Maths, and dropping either Art or German as those are subjects that you still gain some benefit from doing for a year. But I guess I wanted to ask if there's any advantage in doing further Maths instead of Art or English? She's pretty academic, should get 8/9s in most subjects.

Have a quick look at the entry requirements to study architecture at university. Cambridge says the best “strong” subjects are maths, art & design and physics.

She might not be set on architecture but make sure no doors are closed.

I was also going to suggest Physics, as an alternative to FM. Not only is it highly recommended for some architecture courses, it also keeps open a range of engineering / design type options for further study.

Oh God, she hates physics, it's the one subject she's predicted a 6/7 in. Looks like she may not be aiming for Cambridge!

@Stowickthevast A lot of architecture is physics / engineering / maths though. This won’t be unique to Cambridge!

It’s so important to properly research all courses your daughter might be interested in taking at university, even if there’s no definite plans.

My DD was considering the Design Engineering degree at Imperial. That’s really quite arty / DT in nature. The only required subject is an A star in maths. Further maths is useful but not required. Ditto physics.

DD ruled it out at the open day as it was far too creative - she’s very STEM focussed.

Fully echo the advice to research uni courses and keep as many doors open as possible if unsure of career paths.

Some unis for some courses expect FM to be taken if offered.

My DD is Y12 and sounds like yours. Got virtually straight 9s at GCSE including 9 in Maths. She is doing A level maths and has also sat FM AS. She isn't continuing to A-level but that was never her plan. (School forced either EPQ or FM AS, and after the AS exams you basically continue in the FM class by default until you get agreementfrom the 6th form team to drop.). She's not a natural mathematician and was glad to see the back of it as she definitely doesn't need it for her future career plans. Lots of her classmates are also looking to drop the full FM A-level. Personally I think FM is for real maths lovers. Is that your DD? The step-up to A-level is enough for many.

She does like Maths but not sciences so think it is unlikely she'll want to pursue a career in Stem.

Good to know about Imperial @RatherBeOnVacation although we're in London so she'll probably want to leave.

If she doesn't want to study maths, physics, computer science, engineering or economics, I wouldn't bother with FM as an A-level. So your suggestion (Maths, English, German and Art) would be better in my opinion.

"She does like Maths but not sciences so think it is unlikely she'll want to pursue a career in Stem"

There are areas like Data Science that are really becoming quite big these days, that is very much STEM but a lot more maths rather sciences.

Imperial do a lot of courses in this area (eg Maths with Statistics or Economics, Finance and Data Science)

Warwick has MORSE and Data Science.

UCL has similar courses as well.
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Warwick require A star in both Maths and Further Maths and A in one other subject or all A star where not offering Further Maths.

Imperial varies on the course. For maths with statistics, it's the same as Warwick but for their data science course it's A star AA with A star in maths.

Further Maths is really hard. I did it in year 12 (because I needed something to fill my timetable) and then dropped it for year 13. I think the best way to do Further Maths would be to take Alevel maths and then do FM the following year. Without the basis of Alevel maths (which in itself is a big jump from GCSE) it's really hard. If you're not going to do maths at uni I don't see the point in it.

Year 10 is still very young so she may well not be sure what direction she wants to go in at this age, but I do think the advice to think about what she might want to do at University and work backwards is good. That can still work out if she's unsure, if she picks A levels that leave plenty of doors open. For example, after GCSEs my DS was really torn about whether he wanted to do engineering or go down a more biological route into something like physio or sports science. In the end he picked maths, physics and PE which we knew would be acceptable at lots of Universities for either of those routes. There are lots of A level combinations that leave options open and for many courses, whilst some subjects may be essential there's usually a degree of flexibility. Often the grades matter more than the exact subjects so it's good to think about where her strengths lie and what she enjoys. There really is a big step up from GCSE to A level and I think it's much harder to do well in a subject that you don't enjoy studying.
Neither of my DSs did FM - they both found A level maths more than challenging enough - so I have no personal experience. But I do know that lots of really bright kids at their school start it and drop it so I assume it's tough for all but the most able at maths. It's a great A level for sure for students who want to go down a very maths-y route after school and who really enjoy maths but if, as it sounds, she's unlikely to want to pursue maths or a maths heavy STEM route in the future, it may not be the best choice. It might be preferable for her to begin with a broader range of subjects if she's unsure about her next steps.

DS started with biology, maths, FM and physics. He gave up FM at the end of year 12 as didn't need it. Found it hard and still got a maths A*. As your DD has no plans for any other science there doesn't seem any merit at all in choosing FM over Art or English.

My daughter was furious when she found out she had to take Maths, to be able to do higher maths. Her teachers have been talking her out of it as she wants to do 5. Spanish, physics, economics, maths and higher maths. She has just scored all 9s in her mocks, and is top of every class. She doesn't want to go to uni, is looking at an apprenticeship is some STEM industry. So technically, doesn't need to do A levels, but wants to!

Further Maths is most useful for computer science. The only other point to doing it IMO is because you find maths easy and want an easier ride to grade As.

If she doesn’t want to do maths / engineering / computer science I wouldn’t take further maths
My son took further maths and was so glad he did as the first year of his engineering degree was almost all geared towards getting the kids who hadn’t taken it up to speed.

The one thing I will say with your options is none of them really go together, so can make it much harder when you step up in the subject. I know a fair few people found this. You're having to jump from English, to art, to German etc and change how you're studying. At least maths and further maths align. But it also does depend how they do it, easier to do maths in first year and then FM in the second. I enjoyed FM, but I love maths and went into STEM at uni. The advice from others on looking at entry requirements for uni is very good.

I took FM as an A Level and absolutely hated it. I was good at maths and got persuaded into it by teachers but soon found that unless you genuinely enjoy maths or seriously want to pursue maths, engineering or computer science at university it is a bit of a risky choice. I ended up at a top uni on a bio sciences course, and chemistry or biology would have been far more useful. If your DD is unsure what direction she wants to take, I would suggest she keep her subject choices broader to avoid closing doors.

I loved Further Maths, but admittedly it's not for everyone. Why not have that be the one she does to AS level?
For Architecture she should do maths and art. Would she consider doing geography with that? Geography would be very useful for an architecture application as there is now a big focus on sustainability in architectural design and it's important to understand town planning priorites/legislation etc.
Physics and DT would also be relevant subjects for architecture.
English and German don't relate to it at all so I wouldn't recommend doing more than one of those.

I am an architect and did these exact a levels - Art, Maths, English and German - so naturally I’d say they are a good mix for studying architecture! I think they show you are numerate, can write, and be creative/drawings skills. I planned to do further maths but did maths a level in one year and found it really hard, after finding gcse easy.

I went to UCL, then Brookes, then Cambridge. Because of the structure of architecture qualifications you are likely to move around and all courses are accredited by ARB and by a few years in which university course seems less relevant so I wouldn’t panic about what ‘looks good’ to employers especially.

The approach of each uni will differ however so consider if you want something more technical (eg Bath) or arty/experimental (eg UCL) or history and theory focused (eg Cambridge). Several tutors teach and crit at many other unis. Maybe ask how many lectures, are there exams etc.

If not set on architecture be aware it is a full on competitive course, and at least back in around 2010 it was high stress, where you are in the studio many many hours. And a look at salaries may put you off entirely!

Good luck!

Oh my, she sounds just like me - many moons ago!

I started with A level Maths, German and Art and AS level FM. Then I switched to A level maths, FM and German and did Art to AS level. I also loved the idea of being an architect - but became an accountant who enjoys house renovation in her spare time!

I found the challenge of FM really good and enjoyable. It really pushed me and if she is capable it is good to be challenged I think. I ended up doing an accountancy with German degree and had a year abroad with it which I learned a lot from - language and personal growth.

I loved art, but in reality it wasn’t my strongest subject and I was never going to be an artist. With hindsight I think I would have enjoyed something like psychology more instead - I never enjoyed the sciences either.

I would always recommend to do the subjects you enjoy and are good at and let the career choice come later. If you have to do a subject you don’t really like to get into a career it poss isn’t the right career anyway.

DD is in Y12 now and doing Maths, Further Maths, Criminology and Accounting. Her aim is to become a Chartered Accountant and then look to move into forensic accounting. She got 9’s in Maths, Further Maths and Chemistry at GCSE and her lowest grade was a 6 for all other subjects so she is fairly academic.

4 A levels aren’t worth it - universities don’t really
look at the 4th option. So if she has to do a 4th in Y12 then it is important that she enjoys it as 4 A levels are a LOT of work. My DD is currently looking to drop Further Maths for Y13 as that subject is a lot of work and very time consuming.

There’s a huge jump from gcse to a level. I got a 9 and struggle with the move further maths is even harder it’s really for those needing it at uni

"I went to UCL ... arty/experimental (eg UCL)"

Wildly off-topic - sorry.

That's really interesting, many years ago while I was there I had a friend who was studying at the Bartlett and, while I knew it was obviously architecture I had no idea what he did on a day to day basis (I used to spend my time with a lot of maths, physics and astronomy people).

At my child college if you do further maths you also have to do maths. So if you where doing 4 subjects you could only do 2 others. I thought that was standard

Yes @Laserwho I meant that she could just do Maths without Further Maths - I don't think it's possible to do it the other way round!

The 4 A levels is just the way her school does it, then they do an AS level units it's FM which you carry on. But she may decide to leave for 6th form instead and do drama which her school doesn't offer for A level - I guess instead of art/English.

Thanks for all the interesting advice - especially @Archimix and @rhewitt who did similar combinations. I actually think that though she says she's interested in architecture, she may actually be more into interior design. Let's see.