A-level choices

[Mumofboys2006]

My DS is ending year 10 and we are at the stage that we are starting to think about Alevel choices.

Hes pretty much had all 9s in end of year exams except for Maths which is around an 8.

Hes veering towards sciences and DT which he loves. We are not keen for him to do Maths Alevel. It’s a tough subject if it doesn’t come naturally- this was my experience with my eldest who did do Maths Alevel.

Im just wondering what career options are open to him based on say Physics, Chemsitry and DT? Engineering seems to require Maths as well.

Any help appreciated! Neither myself or DH are scientists or engineers so this is all new to us.

https://www.theuniguide.co.uk/a-level-explorer

There are plenty of websites which will give you a list of degrees you can do with various A level choices.

I'd be reluctant to not to maths though as it is a requirement of so many degrees. How would he feel about starting it in the September as well as physics, chemistry and DT and then dropping the one he's enjoying least at half term?

Definitely don't dismiss maths. He's obviously good at it to br getting an 8. So many degrees and apprenticeships insist on it. My son didn't do it and is now having to do it independently at 19 to get on the course he wants

OP - he can't do Physics A-level without taking Maths. Even Further Maths is recommended, if the school offers it. Physics A-level is tough, so if he is not great with Maths, he shouldn't pick it.
That said - 8 for Maths is a good grade - and it's an A* in the old system.

I'd say - don't rule anything out yet. If he wants to do sciences, he really needs to take Maths. Or he can go to humanities, and not do Maths. But this is the basic choice, really.

For engineering - he'll need Maths and Physics and DT is also useful. But you don't need to think this far in advance.

Physics needs maths. Many colleges won’t let you do physics a level without maths a level and lysis degrees need a lot of maths.

an 8 in maths is fine.

Most Engineering related disciplines will indeed require maths so he would be limiting his options if he doesn't do A level. Both my boys are doing engineering degrees curently and they both found A level maths a challenge so I understand where you're coming from, but it does open lots of doors so I wouldn't write it off at this stage. But there are other things he could do without Maths, such as a variety of healthcare degrees. Or if he has creative leanings as well as an interest in science how about Product Design? Maths isn't always required for that. For example the Product Design and Technology BSc at Loughborough requires one of maths, physics, computer science or electronics A levels and Product Design & Innovation at Strathclyde has Maths or Physics or DT as essential but not all of them.
I agree it's too soon for him to be making firm decisions but not too soon to be looking at the possibilities.
Incidentally I did A level Physics without Maths. Admittedly it was a long time ago but for what it's worth I didn't find it remotely difficult. There were a few in my DS's Physics class who weren't doing Maths who last year and they all did well. It's relatively unusual not to do both and it probably does make it a bit harder but it's definitely not impossible as long as the pupil has a good grasp of GCSE maths.

I agree with those saying look again at maths. Physics A level without maths is indeed unusual, though not unheard of (DC in DS2's year did it). But yy some sixth forms won’t allow it. An 8 in maths is fine for A level. DS2 got an 8 and got a B at A level. If he had dedicated more effort to it that might have been an A (but his other subjects were his priority, for him rightly so).

You are right that most engineering degrees, even things like biomedical and chemical engineering, require maths.

But... to me tho I sometimes think we go about this the wrong way. It makes no sense to me to say (as it were - not saying you are saying this) “he wants to be an engineer so he had better do maths even tho he is not keen.” If maths is a big part of an eng degree (clearly it is) then would you want to do the degree and be an engineer if you are not keen on maths?

My subject is MFL – it would be crazy to think “I’d like to teach French and German, so I had better do them for a degree; hmm better do them for A level then; oh but I don’t like them and am not that good – I am much better at history/biology/english.” Do history then!

Not everyone has to be an engineer, whatever you read on MN :). If he wants to take chemistry and DT and a n other (not physics without maths ideally) then there will be directions that can lead, for sure.

I was also going to mention product design - my son had been considering DT a level so we were looking at that. Take some advice from the teachers though as physics could be a challenge without maths.
It might be hard to go into physical science type degrees without maths - does he have any idea on potential degree or career? There’s a lot in that design space.

Also, I’d suggest looking carefully at the DT a level options available to him. Different schools and colleges run it very differently - for some, it’s very arty, based in the art department, and is very much about sculpture, artistic 3D design. Other courses are more architectural, engineering type solutions, a bit more like our experience of DT gcse. Def worth looking through the course descriptions at a level cos it really varies a lot. It’s often called 3D design. There seems to be a lot of scope to flex within the curriculum.

But... to me tho I sometimes think we go about this the wrong way. It makes no sense to me to say (as it were - not saying you are saying this) “he wants to be an engineer so he had better do maths even tho he is not keen.” If maths is a big part of an eng degree (clearly it is) then would you want to do the degree and be an engineer if you are not keen on maths?
I know what you are saying, but there's a lot in maths A level that isn't directly related to engineering. My DH, brother and both my sons all are or will be engineers of various kinds and none of them is a particularly fantastic mathematician. They can do the bits of maths that they need to do pretty well but not everything. My younger DS has just finished his first year at University and was exempt from the end of year maths exam because he'd done so well in all the end of module exams, but he only just scraped the maths A level grade he needed to get on the course. The difference is that now he is only doing engineering related maths. There's plenty from maths A level that he will probably never look at again.

That's interesting @AgeingDoc as I probably revealed, engineering is not my area haha.

In that case ignore my babble. I mean it would absolutely apply to my subject – if you don’t like the look of French A level then a degree in French is not for you but I can see how it could be different for a more applied subject like eng.

I think it's the same for lots of A levels @clary I've heard people question why someone who wants to do medicine or another health related degree wouldn't want to do Biology A level. There's often a one word answer. Plants.
And my DH who is a mechanical engineer, not surprisingly loved the mechanics in A level Physics but didn't do terribly well on the electricity related questions, whereas my brother who did electronic engineering was pretty much the exact opposite. My DS's best friend from school is now doing a physics degree and he enjoyed different parts of the maths and physics syllabi compared to my would be engineer.
For the A level subjects which feed into a wide variety of disciplines later there's bound to be parts which some people find uninteresting and difficult but that they need to grin and bear until they get to the next stage of study.

Good point @AgeingDoc

There is a difference tho between "I don't find this aspect interesting " and not actually having the ability to take something on. Which is what the op seems to be saying about her dc and maths. Tho as pps say, 8 in maths is fine for A level. If engineering is the aim.

Thanks all this is really helpful. I’ll look into product design - it sounds really interesting.

my older DS is a medic now and he did well at Alevels but as I say we feel he spent too much time on maths in comparison to other subjects.

Yes I think most schools do require Maths and Physics together - his Physics teacher seems to think he’s capable enough for Alevel. I’ll need to check what the Maths teacher thinks at the next parents evening.

We are definitely not set on engineering as a career choice - we are neither of us into STEM subjects at all but our boys are! I’d be as happy for him to do humanities but he seems to enjoy the black and white aspect of science more, as opposed to shades of grey!🙃

You keep saying we

its your DS choice not yours

Let him choose his favourite subjects to do at A Level. It’s as simple as that. His uni course choices will then follow his preferences. If you make the decision for him, it may backfire

my DS is doing Engineering at Uni, but he loves maths and it came easy and naturally for him. His A level choices were maths, further maths and physics

It was some time ago but I remember the weak mathematicians studying emgineering at my university (they all had maths A level and many had further maths) had a horrible time. They often ended up doing resits in september and one hard working student was made to leave after the second year because they just couldn't pass the maths module. Topics like fluid mechanics are full of difficult maths as well.

I wouldn't worry about an 8 at gcse though. The main question is does he understand the maths or not? Is he good at logical thinking and problem solving? If so he'll probably do well at A Level maths. You need a very high percentage for a 9 so a very good mathematician who makes careless mistakes could easily get an 8 at gcse.

I'd suggest starting with 4 a levels if he isn't sure about maths. He may just need more confidence. I guess you don't need maths a level to be a medic like your older son but if your younger son wants to study non bio science / engineering / natural sciences / comp science it is going to be useful.

That said for engineering / comp science and even chemistry and physics at some where like oxford, in some kind of awful arms race, most people have further maths a level.

Also just read that he is only the end of year 10. Try not to rule him out of things because his older brother found them hard.

Given the underlying cognitive abilities (which I am sure your son has) maths is all about practice, hard work and confidence.

Hard is subjective. Personally I can't understand why anyone would do Art GCSE let alone A level, but people do. But Marhs in my family was just as natural as reading a book. If he is interested in Engineering, it could be that Maths is a lot more logical to him than it was for his brother.

Get him to take this to research different options for courses he might enjoy then work back to A levels. And remember ab 8 is an old Astar. The advice is to be wary of maths A level if you get below a 7.

He is only in year 10
His predicted grades mean that if these are achieved, he could choose any subject.
He needs to choose the subjects he enjoys, and wants to study.
He needs to choose, not you
Stop assuming his A level experience will be the same as his brother.

@DryerEye- thanks - that’s useful advice

My daughter did chemical engineering and definitely needed Maths, as it’s very analytical. She is now in global restructuring in London. She loved her degree, but decided she wanted to work in finance. In the end she went back to the Maths. You can always get a tutor to add extra depth to the A level….

A 8 is wonderful in Y10, he's not even done half the course yet. Our school does not even give out 9s in Y10, although you could get a 7 and be predicted a 9.

What subjects does DS want to do? You can advise him, but it really should be his choice.

Would any of these degrees be of interest?

https://www.lboro.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/materials-science-engineering-beng/

https://www.lboro.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/industrial-design/

https://www.lboro.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/construction-engineering-management/

@LarkspurLane- he’s clueless I’m afraid at the moment, I’m just trying to give him some ideas, so he’s at least thinking about it. Ultimately he needs to do what floats his boat.

I am not doing any of these things. Please see my earlier reply. He’s not on mumsnet, I am. I’m just gathering information for him to get him thinking.

@3WildOnes- these sound really interesting- I’ll send this all on to him!☺️