Languages and Dyslexia

[lotsofthingstolearn]

DS aged 12 coming to the end of year 7.

Selective state Grammar school, who have been superb thus far regarding DS dyslexia. But, caveat here is that we're new to the secondary school thing our barometer is that their support was a marked difference from primary school who did little.

The curriculum at school is he has to study Latin, French and German- we've always said go along with it and we know he will find it challenging. He hates it and even more so when he's asked to resit tests as he scores below 50%

End of year exams have been interesting and for all languages he's scored below 7%. But, in his other subjects eg History (77%), Biology (55%) English (55%) he's scored ok. Except his maths (he scored greater depth in SATs) he has got 20% but has said he forgets the process of what he's got to do to get the answer in the more complicated sums

I want to make the case that spending time on languages is pointless, he won't want to do them at GCSE and is it not better he spends time on overlearning other subjects so it goes into his long term memory easier?

Someone has said this may be problematic as languages feature in factor 8 scoring?

Has anyone done anything and or can any teachers offer advice of what I should do

I'm in Wales so bit different process. My request for an IDP was turned down but I'll need to push in year 8 to drop language, or appeal IDP decision. I'm told we would win appeal by specialist teacher (asd).

Ps. My daughter is also dyslexic

My DS is dyslexic and was able to drop his MFL when in year 7, the real shame was that his French teacher was the teacher who understood his difficulties better than any of the others.
DS then moved to a dyslexia specialist school and they actually taught a MFL there but dropped it for all in the GCSE years.

Re the time in the library- surely independent learning in a library doesn't need supervision to take away from the librarians tasks?

I'm not a school librarian, but am non student facing school support staff. I regularly get kids put in my room. It prevents me doing all sorts of things - as even if they are totally self sufficient, I can't leave the room - so can't go sort out any issues for the staff I support, can't make any phonecalls the student mustn't overhear, can't get used for any first aid issues. It is also very rare that students are self sufficient, and I regularly get pulled into helping them, finding resources for them etc. I pretty much loose most of the hour they are with me.

Edit: my supervision is never planned, so I can't arrange a day to have suitable tasks for me in fixed hours. Knowing the timetable might help!

He doesn’t need an EHCP to drop languages.

it’s all about the school logistics. It varies massively from school to school.

I’m an ex secondary teacher and at the school I most recently worked at (comp) some kids did no languages at all from year 7 and had timetabled extra English and maths (called boosters but the name varies from school to school). We offered two languages from year 7 and then they chose one in year 8 to take further. At gcse they could choose none, one, two or three (we offered after school Japanese and before school Latin).

it’s about where he goes when not in language lessons. If there is a Sen hub or library or similar and he’s the kind of kid to sit quietly and do his homework they’ll probably be happy.

if they think he’ll be a grade A pain in the arses and there’s nowhere with supervision they’ll push back.

My DS is at grammar. Some of his friends were bumped from their languages lessons in year 10/11, to do independent study in the library. I think easier to expect KS4 students to be independent learners.

I mean this kindly but where do your son’s results put him in terms of grades compared to others in the year? Because he’s only year 7, and ime the workload and pace ramps up massively as they go through the years. Are school comfortable with him getting 50% in exams at this stage? Because if he’s struggling already, you might want to think about how you can support him at home too eg tutors. It can be really tough on their self esteem - because grammars just have high expectations (students too). One of DS’s lovely friends has suffered.

Are you sure that a grammar school is the best place for him?

He is having to do 3 languages, and not keeping up in maths.

If he was at a comprehensive he wouldn't have to do 3 languages and would be able to go at an appropriate speed in maths. Is he going to be able to keep up in physics if his maths is behind?

It depends of course what your 'non grammar' options are like.

I agree with everyone – MFL is not compulsory for GCSE whatever the school says (tho an individual school may insist on it – but if a low grade is very likely you can argue this). AFAIK it is compulsory for KS3 but even then, a school can argue that SEN makes it impossible.

Sounds as tho your DS would benefit from fewer languages (MFL is my subject btw so I am very much pro MFL – but not if it is such a struggle) and support in maths.

The issue is going to be “independent study in the library” – most schools IME will not allow this for safeguarding issues. It’s not fair on the librarian if they have to support. Is there an SEN hub where he could be timetabled instead for (say) maths support instead of one or two of the current MFLs? Three MFLs is a lot anyway – does he get two lessons in each per week? Is it a longer school day or how does the school manage this?

And this is why MN is brilliant

Thank you all so much. And, DongDingBell- such a brilliant alternative view that I hadn't thought of- thank you!

I'll ask for a meeting and see where we get to. He's happy at school, they seem to care very much for their pupils, they communicate regularly and for us we're happy. They have told as parents evening there are no concerns, he's thriving, he's bright etc (but "keep going" with languages)

His other exam results (the one's we've got ) he's above average (according to him) he was 3rd for History and Geography with both teachers messaging me thrilled with how well he's done. His English teacher has told him he was above average and gave him positive marks for how well he's done so I'm not sure he's struggling with anything other than languages. His maths he has said he struggles to remember the process and he didn't finish the exam- but apparently even the maths teacher said it was an intentionally hard paper - his best friend scored less and his other friends got no more than 40%. Again this is from him so not entirely sure how accurate it is. But, makes me realise it's cementing the learning etc

DD is Y11 and severely dyslexic.

In Y7 she had to take two languages, so we went with Spanish and Latin as potentially the more dyslexia friendly. Spanish total disaster - Latin a bit better as more phonetic and more cultural stuff as part of the course.

Y8 she just did Latin and by the end of the year it was clear it was a bad idea.

Her school start GCSEs in Y9, so she dropped languages completely and we managed to arrange that she does one of her options twice - so she's in two different classes for it - and the third period she does extra PE.

That way she was always supervised and nothing special had to be put in place.

The other option that we have done for another subject that she was never going to pass was that she attended lessons until the Easter of Y11, but was not entered for the exams. That way she has had the education, but it massively reduced the exam burden and revision burden, and she could focus more on getting good grades in the rest. There won't be any failed subjects on the certificate either.

@OhCrumbsWhereNow What a fantastic idea doing one option twice!

Your DS’s school sounds similar to my DS’s. Secondary school is so different from primary as they jump to over 15 subjects from only a few in primary, and that’s a huge jump. I would speak to his form tutor in the first instance and involve sendco. Have they not reached out to you in the first two terms about his test scores?

Unfortunately 11+ only tests very basic skills and many of DS’s friends are struggling to keep up albeit them being top of class in primary school).

Progress 8 is a measure of the school not the child and should be put in the bin.

I was like your DS but I managed to get an art teacher to teach me and two others when we were supposed to be doing French.

And that was in the days of O Levels.

OK point out to the school that he is not going to get a decent grade so they are wasting their time and his.

They need to make 'reasonable adjustments' for his dyslexia and it is frankly ridiculous to expect a dyslexic child to study three languages.

Is there a BSL evening class near you? I know that sounds completely out of left field but I picked it up very quickly and a couple of other dyslexics I know also found it completely logical. There is some development of GCSE BSL so by the time he is 16 that might be an option if he does get on well with it.

How many lessons does he have per language per week?

Suggest he drops 1 or 2, and spend half the time on dyslexia support and maths, and the other half on the language he is keeping .

Three language is silly under the circumstances, but it would probably go more in your favour is you suggest a compromise as a trial rather than all-out refusal to engage with languages as a whole. Suggest he just does one language and really concentrates on that one. He could use the extra time to work on it and his maths - possibly even in the same classroom as the others while they’re doing French or whatever languages he’s dropped. DD has done that when she had to be in a class teaching a language that she was already a native speaker of: she read a book and then wrote a report/essay on it.
I would recommend German of the three. The spelling is reasonably logical and consistent, and as a living language it would be easy to listen to real resources and go there on holidays. Is there an actual reason someone with dyslexia can’t learn to speak a foreign language (as opposed to learning to write it)? You mentioned several times that your DS hates languages - it’s quite possible that his negative attitude (borne out of his difficulties to read and write words) is making his score worse. He needs to concentrate on learning to speak by repetition.
You also mentioned that he couldn’t remember maths equations - has he ever had his working memory tested? DD had an age-appropriate IQ test once and it showed that her logical reasoning (whatever it‘s called) was excellent but her working memory was terrible (over 30 points difference between the two). She got through school languages (which are mandatory in our country to 18) by learning to speak and use them, not learning them off by heart as written ‘facts’.

For those suggesting he drops languages, at this stage it would mean someone needs to supervise him doing something else. There isn't a way of timetabling this other than just removing him from the lessons everyone else is doing, as it won't be a "route" the school is offering if that makes sense.

If it's a grammar school, they really won't have a huge number of TAs to facilitate extra maths instead of a language or whatever. If they do and are receptive, that's great, but I feel like a lot of the replies listed above come from parents/students of schools where a v high volume of the students will end up leaving without a GCSE in a language and there is quite a lot of "intervention" happening during lesson times, this just might not be the case at your son's school.

I teach in a selective independent school where the students study two MFL and Latin up to the end of year 9 and then have to do a language GCSE, they are not allowed not to. We have dyslexia students with really spiky profiles who find languages hard. It's set, the teachers are really understanding and they help the kids who are encouraged to keep going with it. I really don't think that it's a good idea to encourage kids with SEND needs to drop everything they find difficult - you don't want him to drop the maths after all!

However, it would obviously be better for the school to remove him from one of his MFL subjects and do maths intervention 1-2-1 or with a small group, but I'm just saying that might be very difficult if they don't HAVE to and they have limited staff for SEN support - which they will.

Why is it a good idea to make SEN kids take subjects they are bad at - because of their disability? What exactly does it teach them? Especially when those subjects are not compulsory for life.

That is how to undermine confidence and self esteem and make them feel stupid.

Schools should learn to be more flexible, think outside the box and prioritise their student's well-being. At the very least there should be the option to take the class, not do homework and not sit the exams.

And I say that as someone who took 3 languages and Latin to GCSE, since studied another to mother-tongue standard and is not in favour of kids ditching things when a bit of effort is required.

One the saddest parts of DD's education for me was realising that MFL and Latin were just totally beyond her capabilities.

She's taught herself to speak some Italian using DuoLingo, and manages to sing in German and Italian for auditions with the Royal Opera (I transcribe all the scores into phonics for her).

But GCSE is massively stacked against them because of what is examined. And not just in Languages. If you have weak working memory (DD is 7th centile versus 98th centile for everything else - over 50 points difference on some scores) then that affects everything from ability to retain information, ability to revise and recall. Year 11 has been a massive struggle for her and her grades will in no way reflect her actual capability.

You do not need to further penalise these children in a 'it's good to eat your greens' type way.

Thanks everyone for the comments so useful.

This is verbatim from his dyslexia assessment

"Compared to his underlying ability, his working memory, phonological awareness and verbal processing speed are lower than predicted. There is a discrepancy between his underlying ability and aspects of his attainment"

My approach after this post isn't to ditch them all, he needs to build resilience etc, and also we don't know if this studying 3 has derailed any hope so I'm going to try to get them to do just one for year 8. See how he goes with that- who knows he may thrive! But, it's reassuring to know I'm not miles wide of the mark. There is definitely a mindset thing going on as well- he knows he can perform in humanities and he absolutely loves them. So there will no doubt be an element of self fulfilling prophecy gong on

I don't want to be abrasive with school to say "my son needs this blah blah" but knowledge is power and I didn't know what the facts were etc.

I have no reason to believe they won't be accommodating, but neither do I have any to believe they will.

Also don't think I need the EHCP, I just need to speak to school to see what happens.

@OhCrumbsWhereNow I think it's important to make all kids do SOME stuff they are not good at, I wouldn't be suggesting kids have to do 3 languages at GCSE at all. I think OP's attitude is quite similar.

All I was trying to point out is that for better or worse, grammar schools tend not to be great at providing alternative options which take away subjects or make allowances for SEN. It's not really their raisin d'etre. If they can accommodate what OP would like without her DS just sitting in the library I would be pleasantly surprised, but I would be surprised.

I feel your pain. DS is 13, dyslexic, has English as his mother tongue, another (easy) European language as a second language, which he can speak but not read/write in (no need right now/it will come). We live in a third European country, where he attends bilingual school, so his lessons are in English and the host country language.

All that is enough, but he has to learn Spanish as part of the mandatory curriculum and his marks are terrible. I've told him not to worry about this, but it does effect his marks. It's not fair on him.

Tell me you have no understanding of dyslexia without telling me you have no understanding of dyslexia.

Do you also advocate for wheelchair uses to enter the 100m sprint? Deaf students in the choir? Take the white stick and guide dogs away from blind students?

It doesn't need to be 'timetabled' if the OP DC is well behaved, sitting at the back of a class reading or working on maths he does not need a 'rout'.