If your school's PAN is a multiple of 30 ...

[rathercool]

... how does it manage the numbers in each class for GCSE options?
For example, if it has 180 students (6 classes of 30) but only 20 want to do Art or Music, would they still arrange them as 6 classes (e.g. 20, 20, 35, 35, 35, 35), or would they increase the number of classes to 7 in order to keep all the group sizes below 30 (e.g. 20, 20, 28, 28, 28, 28, 28).

Presumably the first option would be unpopular with everyone, but the second option would have a big impact on school budgets as it would need an extra teacher.

Ex secondary teacher.

classes for gcse options are rarely 35 unless it’s triple science.

generally the way it works is that there is a minimum number to run the option. That number depends on what the option is. My school used to be very proud of it’s languages provision and would run Latin and Japanese gcse even if only a few kids in the class (largely because they could then boast about it in the prospectus.)

gcse options classes were usually between 12-30. Popular options - geography and history for example - might have several classes of 30 or so.

But then this school must have increased the number of classes in each teaching period at key stage 4. E.g. if it had 180 students (6 form groups of 30) and 5 did Latin and 5 did Japanese, they would need at least 8 classes, not 6:
e.g. 5, 5, 29, 29, 29, 28, 28, 27 = 180.

My kids' (state) school are fantastic at offering a variety of options - which this year means those taking computer science and triple science have only 8 in their Physics class. It's a dream for the teacher! French is only about 15 students (, Spanish more but not 30). There are several classes of history and geography as these are more popular. And the core subjects have 30 in a class (Maths and English).

The kids don’t stay in their classes for all the same lessons.

Yes this is what schools do.its factored into budgets.

What is their PAN?

Ours (c.450 in each year group) seems to split the year in half for timetabling and then sets for pretty much every subject.

In Y7 and Y8 you do a lot of subjects in tutor groups (c.30 kids and they seem to be balanced for sex, and also streamed), PE they are timetabled with another class so that girls in one and boys in the other. Languages (4 on offer) they're also timetabled to get a decent number in each class.

For GCSE, DD does things like music which are popular - at least 80+ taking that - her classes are around 15. Creative Media also 15.

Then it depends on which set (they have around 20 sets) some are bigger than others, but from what DD says the largest is around 25-30.

Whoever the timetable people are... wow... I do not envy them their job, but they are incredibly flexible about making things work so everyone gets their options, and some students, including DD, have bespoke timetables. I guess it's one of the big advantages of a massive PAN - all things are generally possible.

It's 180.

They'll just have more than 6 options running at once. EG two history, two geography, French, Italian, computer science and statistics.

GCSE options classes are rarely as large as core subjects, in my experience. Theure normally more 20-25, or smaller for subjects like food or music.

Posted too soon, sorry!

Due to the smaller classes and greater capacity, it is rare that pupils don't get their choices. I work in a small secondary school and for the last three years every pupil has got their first choices.

Yes, this is what happens. I went to a large school (13 classes of 30 per year) and at GCSE, some classes were smaller and there were just more classes in each teaching period. It was a big school so had lots of subject options at gcse so smaller classes weren’t unusual.

My Dad wrote the timetable for a large secondary school for years (alongside a teaching role), and then did it for an additional secondary school once he retired. KS4 options are timetabled in the expectation that there will be more classes than ?x30 to match the PAN.

You might have (to give a very simple example) 6 form groups but timetable 7 options classes, with one popular class of 30 and then six classes of 25.

At DDs school the PAN is 210/240 (increased last year) but there's more teaching groups than just 7/8 in all year groups, not just GCSE. The top sets do sometimes have more than 30, but the lower sets are smaller.

They don't need 30 to run a GCSE course, although some subjects have a maximum number of pupils which can take them.

My son’s school had a PAN of 30 but for core subjects (maths English and science) there are 12 classes, the lower ability sets have smaller classes. He only has 12 in his music class as hardly anyone chose it as a GCSE option. Am sure his history and geography classes have close to 30 as they are popular subjects (and everyone has to do at least one of them) but it will probably not work out at exactly 30. I expect there is some leaway in the budgets to have classes of 25 once kids choosing options.

Most schools will have timetable slots so you can’t necessarily do any combination, instead you pick one from list a one from b one from c and one from d. There will be a minimum class size typically too. My dd couldn’t do German and music because they were in the same slot, particularly stupid because her music specialty was voice and was singing principally in German! They changed the slots for her thankfully

Wow, that's a huge PAN. Bigger numbers mean bigger budget, so probably a lot more flexibility than much smaller schools.

Yes, though I expect small schools with small budgets may find it more difficult to fund the extra teaching hours needed for an additional class.

There's a PAN 50 Secondary nearby us and they basically tell the kids what GCSEs they are doing, I think they got one choice between two subjects.

It was one of the reasons we picked it.

People often think smaller is better. In my experience bigger means more money, more resources, more teachers, more options, more flexibility and more friendship options.

And when they are that big, each year group effectively functions as a standalone school so they often feel much smaller.

Core subjects are often below 30 as well.

the secondary I taught at most recently had a PAN of 210.

in year 7 all subjects were mixed ability groups of 30.

in year 8 a nurture group of low ability/SEN students was pulled off with 10 students and TA support concentrated in there. Other groups still 30 and mixed ability.

year 9 completely settled.

DD's year has a PAN of 210. Maths is already split into 8 sets (year 7), and they would expect to be running more than 7 classes a year much of the time - they are set more from year 8. GCSE classes vary hugely in size - last year 10 did music, for example