Junior maths challenge 2025

[scisso]

Does anyone know when the results and boundaries get announced? How was this year’s paper in comparison to previous years?

DD sat it and thought some of them were quite hard so had to guess them, but she hasn’t done much of the past papers so doesn’t have much to compare against.

any insights would be very much appreciated.

"My guess is that UKMT will do something like they eventually did on the MOG: break the first couple of questions into parts that will lead more candidates towards a solution, or at least allow them to make some progress. However, since they're still allowing 2 hours for only 6 questions, I'd also guess that they will make the last couple of questions more difficult."

We don't know but I do think this is a very good shout, and probably makes my comments of yesterday obsolete. There seems little value in setting the exam at a difficulty level where the averages would I expect be in the low 20's (say 35%-40%) which it probably would be after dropping section A and following the same format.

2022 and 2023 Markers reports have actual mean's provided for sections A and B.

2022 (5.71+15.4)/70
2023 (6.8+22)/70

Assuming Section A average was 6 marks in 2024 with a mean of 27 would give a section B mean of 21. So the average of the section B's in the last 3 years is under 20 marks. Do they really want to set the exam where the mean mark is somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3?

So what are they likely to do? Like you say maybe split some questions into parts, with maybe 2-4 subquestions for some of them giving an opportunity to pick up marks. Perhaps increase the difficulty gradually over the course of the paper? I suppose there are a few options. What would surprise me is if the exam followed the existing section B format.

@Jonny234

Perhaps increase the difficulty gradually over the course of the paper?

This is already the case in all math Olympiads which I'm aware of, including the JMO (the second paragraph in the markers report I linked to earlier refers to this). For that matter, I believe this is the case in all the UKMT first round challenges as well.

Do they really want to set the exam where the mean mark is somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3?

The very first paragraph in the 2024 Markers Report reads "This year’s paper [2024] turned out to be one of the easier papers in recent years, roughly similar to last year’s paper [2023], with correspondingly high thresholds for awards. The setting committee will be taking note of this when setting next year’s paper." I don't know how you read that, but that sounds kind of ominous to me. I read it as though they preferred the 2022 outcome to the 2023 outcome. As you pointed out, the mean score on Section B in 2022 was 25%. And the median score would have been lower than that because of the skew.

Actually, they don't care much about the mean or median scores. What's more important to them is that they be able to distinguish between the top 40-200 candidates, the medalists. That said, I suspect that they would be happy with a score distribution like the following, assuming 1460 children write the paper like last year:

Q1: 1300 make good progress (7-10 points on the question)
Q2: 949 make good progress (top 65% will get a Certificate of Merit)
Q3: 365 make good progress (top 25% will get a Certificate of Distinction)
Q4: 200 make good progress (they intend to award 100 Bronze Medals)
Q5: 100 make good progress (they intend to award 60 Silver Medals)
Q6: 40 make good progress (they intend to award 40 Gold Medals)

A score distribution like this would result in a mean score around 20, with a median score a couple of points lower.

Of course, it's never that clean, not every child who can do question 6 will necessarily be able to do all of questions 1-5.

user149799568 as always, sensible valid points.

Out of interest what is your take on the increase in the values for top qualification thresholds? The last 2 yrs olympiad 123/ 125 is very high and this yrs 100 Kangaroo is too. 123 and 125 doesn't sound like a lot but at that level there must be a fair few 123's and 124's.

ukmt.org.uk/junior-challenges/junior-maths-challenge-awards

Are there more marks these days? Are the kids better prepped? Questions easier?

If there isn't a definitive answer you're aware of gut feeling is fine.

There are definitely some really interesting questions around the point of all of this. My ds is through to Kangeroo but from a parental point of view I’m less interested in his grades or trying to distinguish between the top mathematicians in the country than him having the opportunity to really enjoy doing some challenging maths and grow as a mathematician. He thoroughly enjoys the challenge type questions and finds them stretching.

I think the higher grade boundaries for follow on rounds are unfortunately going to mean that in many schools where there is little or no prep for these challenges children will have less chance of moving on to the follow on rounds.

I also wonder whether an experience of eg the Olympiad as being so hard even for the children in that category will ultimately be off putting for many of them? The MOG format sounds good from a learning perspective.

As a comparison point, it’s interesting to reflect that at the specialist music schools the children do not tend to do music grades and instead focus on mastery/challenging repertoire and growing as musicians. I do wonder whether focus on the marks here is where these competitions should be going.

Would it be better to have challenge style live events where mathematically able children could spend an enriching day learning about these sorts of problems?

Are there more marks these days? Are the kids better prepped? Questions easier?

I believe the recent increase in the number of top students can partially be attributed to the growing popularity of specialized Jmc tutoring classes—both online and in-person—designed specifically for exam questions preparation. This trend is particularly strong in Asian/East Asian communities, where families often emphasize early and intensive preparation for math olympiad, kids are put forward to take JMC from year 4/5. I’d be very interested to see the demographic breakdown of participants in the JMO/Kangaroo, but unfortunately, I don’t think the UKMT collects that information.

Quite sweeping comments :). My year 6 child has not done any JMC paper. My elder child only started from year 8(and we are Asian). Beast Academy is really fun at this age if the child is keen. The best part of Olympiad problems is it requires deep thinking.

While I agree that the best part of Olympiad math is the opportunity to think deeply, this doesn’t necessarily apply to the JMC or Kangaroo levels. With some preparation, exam techniques, and targeted tutoring, scores can easily be boosted by 20–30 marks. And the JMO related turoring class is a blooming business in recent year among some group of parents. This creates a distortion in the result distribution between those who receive specific preparation and those who don’t. I'm commenting on the general trend in general, particularly the recent surge in high scores, it is a phenomenon rather than referring to any specific case or family.

@Jonny234

Are the kids better prepped? Questions easier?

Probably some of each. I infer from the remark on the JMO markers report indicating that more JMO participants are following instructions and attempting full solutions that more JMO qualifiers are being prepared for the JMO, at least to the extent of being taught the format and the rubric, whether by their math teachers, parents, or tutors. I would further guess the preparation extends to the qualifying exam as well.

That said, I found Questions 23-25 on the JMC to be noticeably easier on the post-Covid papers than on the ones before.

Foxhasbigsocks I can see your point. I believe generally any kangaroo will be at a level higher than the class level at school and will relish the extra challenge. Even the question level of the 1st JMC paper will be higher than what they are used to normally. Kids capable of this will relish the challenge.

The Olympiad is totally different. I think my DD would relish it if it was more of the same multiple choice but the mature style questions and marking system of the Olympiad dont just make it advanced on the difficulty of questions but also on the full workings requirement. The latter she is not developed in by any means so for her it's more a case of preparation for more advanced maths in the future rather than being about the grade outcome of the test.

On a good day with the right questions she may be able to answer 3 or 4 questions but in doing so may only pick up 15-20 marks. The challenge is adding another 10-15 marks to this with more detailed workings.

PreplexJ That makes sense. I've also seen social media posts with yr9's taking it too. Maybe say 10%-15% of the candidates are non year 7/8?

For the remaining candidates, then perhaps 2/3's of the qualifiers are boys, and 2/3's yr8?

There was a post on here stating at older ages boys do a lot better than girls in the olympiads, so perhaps 2/3s by only works at kangaroo level and rises for olympiad.

That said, I found Questions 23-25 on the JMC to be noticeably easier on the post-Covid papers than on the ones before.

I think this is related and intentially, related to the change of marking scheme compared to the pre-COVID years.

@Jonny234

Are there more marks these days?

Yes. Before Covid, points were deducted in the JMC for incorrect answers on Questions 16-25. After Covid, no deductions were made for incorrect answers. The effect is to add 12 points, on an expected basis, to the scores of children who cannot access the last 10 questions within the allotted hour if they use optimal strategy and just fill in guesses for the remaining questions. This effect diminishes for children who are able to access some of the last 10 questions, to zero for a child who can do all 25 correctly.

Before Covid, a "typical" JMO qualifying score corresponded to about 20 correct answers. At that level, this change should have added one more correct, albeit randomly guessed, answer, or about 6 points, to the qualifying score. The actual increase in the JMO qualifying score has been more like 15 points.

if they use optimal strategy and just fill in guesses for the remaining questions

Not all students — especially those who didn’t reach the last 10 questions — would have used that kind of strategy. Under the old marking scheme, students who attempted the last 10 questions, whether they got them right or wrong, could be just guessing randomly, not aware of exam techniques. So the change in marking scheme, by itself, likely raised the overall average score. But to what extent this affects the grade boundaries is still unclear and depends on a lot of assumptions.

Under the old marking scheme, students who attempted the last 10 questions, whether they got them right or wrong, could be just guessing randomly, not aware of exam techniques.

Under the old scheme, students who guessed randomly on the last 10 questions would have got two right on an expected basis for +12 points but would have got eight wrong for -12 points, netting out to 0. That was the purpose of the negative marks. Under the new scheme, they'll still get +12 for the two correct answers but will not lose any points for the wrong ones for a net score of +12.

It's not relevant whether students are aware of optimal strategy or not. If they guess on the last 10 questions or, for that matter, make mistakes that aren't guesses, they'll get higher scores under the new scheme than under the old one.

But to what extent this affects the grade boundaries is still unclear and depends on a lot of assumptions.

Absolutely. I've provided a lot of information and I believe that I've been clear about my assumptions. You're free to make whatever assumptions you please and draw whatever conclusions you wish.

@Jonny234

I've also seen social media posts with yr9's taking it too. Maybe say 10%-15% of the candidates are non year 7/8?

The JMC? It's supposed to be for Year 8 and below. Some primaries do give it Year 6s and even Year 5s but I wasn't aware that Year 9s are allowed to take it. They're supposed to take the IMC.

@Jonny234 Maybe say 10%-15% of the candidates are non year 7/8?

I don't know the exact number, but I know some high mark kids who took it in Year 7, weren't doing it for the first time. They may have been taking part and practicing it since Year 4 or 5.

I saw some social media posts....but....just thinking most seem to be NI. Their yr9 is our yr8.

Here's one English example though.

https://x.com/ErnestBevinAcad/status/1928451802183180766

The picture shows four yellow ties, a purple tie and one obscured. The school's website indicates that purple ties are Year 7 and yellow ties are Year 8. Year 9 wear blue ties.

I have way too much time on my hands today.

Bravo, you are sharp. 😂

I'm not going to start anything new at 2pm on a Friday as well. I'm just trying to clear up random stuff before the weekend.

UKMT website states

"England, Wales and Overseas: Year 8 and below
Scotland: S2 or below
Northern Ireland: Year 9 or below"

So not to be forgotten and indeed celebrated is UK kids are now 'better' at maths than say 7 years ago
Hoorah!
www.gov.uk/government/news/england-among-highest-performing-western-countries-in-education#:~:text=A%20worldwide%20education%20study%20published,and%20from%2027th%20in%202009.

I have read very much the same on a number of occasions.

The issue now is Bridget's education bill is pleasing nobody, to an extent where she's pushing through with it despite being rumours it could cost her job. I've read tweets about the meetings she had with Katherime Burbalsingh who claims she is not listening and doesn't know what she's doing and it will definitely lower standards.

Effectively it seems to aim to limit headteachers autonomy and put more say into the hands of bureaucrats and ideologues. Never a good idea.

Is it only hold in JMO that go through to Olympad or do silver go through too?

Olympiad sorry

Brilliant :) is DD able to do the next one or is it only gold?

@Jonny234 i think you’ve hit the nail on the head about workings! I’m actually somewhat relieved my ds didn’t get Olympiad because he’s absolutely not ready for the workings side of things. This is his second year getting Kangeroo and I feel what would actually benefit and stretch him is a paper which was Kangeroo and then say one Olympiad style question.