Sixth form decisions - is Core Maths useful, or an EPQ?

[Mafaldaweasley]

My dd is in year 11, and deciding between 2 sixth form options - one is her school sixth form, the other a large sixth form college, which has a very good reputation. Both are probably good options to be honest, and A level results look similar. There are pros and cons to both, and she is quite torn at the moment, but I have said to wait until she can attend the bridging day for the large sixth form as this will give her more of a feel, and also she does not actually have to make a decision until results day.

She is planning to study A levels in biology, chemistry and psychology. She is not sure about an EPQ but think she is considering as she thinks this might lead to lower offers at some universities if she does well. I am a bit more concerned that an EPQ will leave her less time for her A level work so she might not do as well, but guess we have time to think about this. She is interested in a career in a medical/ science field.

She has the option to take Core Maths at the large sixth form but not at her school sixth form. She is working around a 7 in GCSE maths (8s and 9s for sciences) and doesn't want to take A level (which I think she would struggle with). I just wondered to what extent people have found core maths useful, firstly in terms of coping with the maths content of the subjects she has chosen, and if it is something considered an advantage on university application (I suspect not for the latter, but might be useful adjunct for her other subjects)? Also, would core maths and an EPQ be considered too much?
Any opinions welcome - TIA

I am absolutely not an expert, but my DC took core maths - he got a 7 in GCSE but did no work. He found core maths easy/ enjoyable and got an A. I believe that it is considered useful by unis, as it shows practical maths skills. My DC ended up at their first choice uni despite missing their A level grades by quite a lot. It does give quite a few extra ucas points.

Thanks @countdown64 that's useful to know. I think it would be valuable to do as way of keeping up skills in maths. Just not sure if it's enough of a factor to influence a decision!

DD did biology, chemistry and geography at A level. No EPQ or core maths. She achieved a first in biomedical sciences at an RG university. She didn't need core maths at all and found the maths element at university pretty easy.

In terms of UCAS points it depends on where you apply. I hate to bring what might seem like an element of snobbery into this (snobbery on the higher education threads really irritates me), but the higher ranked universities offer on A level or similar grades only, not UCAS points. So this is something to bear in mind.

Your DD can apply to both 6th forms then decide after the taster days. Wishing her good luck with the GCSEs.

Thanks @RampantIvy, that's also good to know. I would hope she would be applying for a RG university. Thanks, that's clarified what I was wondering about UCAS points as the universities I have looked at don't really seem to mention them, just A level results.
Part of me feels she should just concentrate on the A levels as that is actually what she needs, though she is seeming quite swayed by the EPQ at the moment - I foresee this could be stressful and time consuming!

My DS has two offers for medicine from the same RG uni - one AAA and one AAB with an A in his EPQ. It can lead to a bit of wriggle room with the grades if done well! His A levels are Biology, Chemistry and Maths.

My dd did similar subjects to your dd and an EPQ on a topic that interested her but wasn’t covered in her A-level (or GCSE) Psychology courses.
One of my kids did Core Maths and there wasn’t much statistics iirc (I’m assuming that maths in psychology is statistics based) He’s not here so I can’t check but I recall him doing questions like working out how much tax and NI someone paid on a certain salary.

EPQ is useful, but only if they are going to get an A. Which is very achievable if they start early and dedicate proper time and research to it.

In terms of UCAS points it depends on where you apply. I hate to bring what might seem like an element of snobbery into this (snobbery on the higher education threads really irritates me), but the higher ranked universities offer on A level or similar grades only, not UCAS points. So this is something to bear in mind.
True, but some Universities take notice of the EPQ in ways other than counting the points. One of my friends' DC received a reduced offer from an RG University for Medicine last year if she got an A star for her EPQ for instance.
Plus I think the actual process of doing the project can be very worthwhile in its own right. My elder DS learned a huge amount from his EPQ and whilst it didn't directly help him get onto his University course in so far as he didn't need points from it, it featured in his personal statement, definitely helped him get related work experience and the skills and knowledge he gained from it have proved very useful in his subsequent studies.
Depends very much on individual circumstances of course, and doing a complex EPQ shouldn't be so onerous that it interferes with core A level studies, but I don't believe that it's only a meaningful exercise for people who need the points to meet a University entry offer - it can definitely be a worthwhile exercise in its own right.

Thanks all, looking like maybe the EPQ is more worthwhile than core maths.
She is potentially interested in medicine, but I think aware she may not get the grades - she is not naturally an extreme academic high flier, but is motivated and works hard. Useful to know that the EPQ (if get an A!) may result in a reduced offer.
Does anyone have any views on whether better to do the EPQ in year 12 or 13? I think this may be different in each of the sixth forms she is considering. I would guess it might be better to get it out the way early to be able to concentrate on revision...

Does anyone have any views on whether better to do the EPQ in year 12 or 13?
I've had DC do both and I'd say year 12 is better. Year 13 is very pressured with University applications, mocks and of course the actual A levels. Year 12 is a bit less full on so better to move some of the workload if you can. Also if the EPQ is done by the time University applications are going in, they can write about it and if they are applying to somewhere that interviews it may be useful to be able to talk about.

Core maths is very practical and useful. It includes things like statistics and data analysis that would be helpful for medicine, and things like financial maths that will be useful for managing future debt or savings, or completing a tax return. There is a good section about it in this podcast: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001tpwb

Many year 12 students do extended projects that they can talk about in their UCAS personal statement - my sons both did one over a period of 2-3 weeks after their summer mocks - it doesn't need to be an EPQ to serve the purpose.

I'd say core maths skills would be more useful in degree work and in the workplace afterwards than an EPQ.

That was in response to the UCAS points for core maths.

I agree that an EPQ is fine if it doesn't detract from A levels, and the skills and experience from doing one helps once they start university.

A lot of the humanities subjects include an NEA (non examined assessment) which does cover a lot of the skills learned from doing an EPQ. DD's geography NEA was about 6,000 words and was a mini dissertation. She had to conduct research and report back on it and reference her sources. Also, she was studying four A level subjects in year 12 and an EPQ would have broken her. she dropped psychology after AS exams after achieving an A.

I don't think DD's school were big on EPQs when she took her A levels 7 years ago. I think they are more of a thing now.

Thanks @MrsAvocet I agree I don't think doing an EPQ in year 13 sounds like a great idea.

@informayshon think I could have benefitted from some of these aspects of core maths (tax returns, savings) - definitely not taught when I was at school.

@RampantIvy that's interesting, my dd was initially planning on doing biology, chemistry and geography then suddenly changed her mind and decided she wanted to do psychology. I kind of wish she had stuck with geography as I feel
it leaves more options open and the course work element is a positive - but it's her choice.

I would be tempted to do EPQ as the subject choices do not include an extended piece of coursework (if they were taking English lit or history it would be less useful as the skill is repeated)

Yes, am kind of leaning towards advising the EPQ now - unless she switches back to Geography!
Core maths sounds really useful for life, though EPQ potentially more useful for university applications.

@Mafaldaweasley DD2 did the same A level combination as your DD is planning. I would also describe her in similar terms - not an academic high flyer but determined, focused and hard working. FWIW she now has 2 STEM degrees.

She is not a natural mathematician so A level was never a consideration but she did maths, further maths and statistics GCSEs. The statistics in particular was helpful for psychology and beyond that - epidemiology is largely statistics-based so is there any option to do something like that at either of her choices?

Personally, I'd have thought some maths would be way more useful than an EPQ in your DD's case.

DC did an EPQ in Year 12 and it took about 160 hours of sometimes intense work. They are now doing projects at college that use the skills they honed for this, and it really has been an advantage for them. They scored highly in their EPQ and are glad they did it, but it can be a LOT of extra work when you’re focusing on A levels too.

DD hated psychology, which was why she dropped it for year 13. It was very content heavy and you have to memorise loads of cases and experiments carried out by people with unpronounceable and hard to spell names.

She also didn't find it very challenging and rather dull.

It's always a risk when choosing untried subjects. A lot of DD's peers regretted choosing psychology.

My DD also found psychology irredeemably dull and has just dropped it in term 2 (going down from 4 to 3 A levels).

Core Maths is literally designed for students like your DD. It was designed for students taking sciences and social sciences who haven't got the ability or capacity to take A-level maths. It supports the maths side of those subjects (e.g. statistics for psychology). Universities like it because they had problems with students coming to study science or psychology who hadn't done any maths since GCSE and they were having to put remedial maths classes on for them. It can attract reduced offers, and is well-regarded.

Thanks all - yes, I am worried she will not like psychology as much as she thinks she will. And I say this as someone with an intercalated degree in psychology 😂 It seems very popular, and I think people think it is going to be more exciting than it is. I also worry she might do less well in it, partly as I have also heard it is very content heavy and also as she is dyslexic, so having. To learn lots of unpronounceable names sounds a bit worrying! Whereas with geography she could get some of it out the way in the NEA which would probably be easier for her.

@Mafaldaweasley Would either the school or the college let her start off with 4 subjects and drop the least favourite after a term or so?

@JessyCarr thanks, yes I had vaguely thought about that, might suggest it.

So hard to narrow down to 3 options, and not much room for error!

@noblegiraffe thanks yes that's what I thought in terms of it being useful - was just less sure about it being taken into consideration by universities when making offers but that's good to know.