11 + to try or not .

[Alisaann]

Hi all , just looking for so advise .
i have a child in yr 4 doing well at school would say slightly above average very hard working and a delight all round ( for teachers 🤪) she’s also very driven . My question is should I start perp for 11 + or not .
she has mentioned on a few different occasions she would like to try for our local girls grammar . We have a fantastic comp on our door step but unfortunately there is a very strange set up for the school where by you have to attend church in order to get in .Its based on a points system where by if you attend a church primary you get more points and also if you have siblings there you also get more but you still have to attend church for 2 years before . Our other local comp is just ok some would say awful but compared to schools Ive read about in other parts of the country it’s fine .
i have a client that is a tutor and is happy to do some tutoring with her in exchange for free hair cuts 😄. I didn’t want to go down this road as I’m not so bothered if she does it or not but my daughter is really wanting to give it a shot . My question is should I just go for it or will it be a mistake as she isn’t a “gifted child” .

Why would she need tutoring?

It’s more to prep her for the type of question, I’m really new to it all but others have said the style of question are very different to ones they will have experience in the past .

So it's sitting 11+ for grammar or a place at an awful comp?

I would have started to prep her or work for the fantastic comp years ago.

Sorry I’ve probably not explain myself well enough here .
so the fantastic comp there is no test it’s church attendance based on a point system we regular attend our local church, the one that isn’t as good is base on catchment which we are in . And the the grammar is the test school

I'm guessing you're not in a wholly SELECTIVE area, as you have comprehensive, unlike Bucks,

There's nothing to lose, but tutoring isn't always necessary,

I live in Bucks, so there are only grammars and seconschools, which aren't great. A lot of parents have their children tutored, but most fail.

Both my children passed- 18 years apart (completely different exams in that time), and neither was tutored.

others have said the style of question are very different to ones they will have experience in the past

They are. Get the tutoring.

I passed my 11+ and attended a grammar school. Your daughter doesn't need to be gifted, she will achieve plenty simply by working hard, which she is doing already. I would encourage her to go for it.

If she wants to, go for it. But help her by looking at what the schools actually require for their exams. Usually info in admissions section. In addition to tutoring you could order workbooks off Amazon. It depends where you are but some schools are crazy competitive (2,000-3,000 applying!)

I would say that she will need some exam practice. It's about understanding what the questions are asking and timing, not spending too long on one question etc. It's difficult to answer some types of questions not having seen them before.

Also 11+ in our area (Sutton) contains maths they don't do in state primaries until later in year 6 (after the exams) so she will need to learn ahead. Ours also contained creative writing and there are techniques that can be learned.

@Alisaann it depends where you are - I can only speak from my experience but where we used to live if you started preparing her now it would be too late.

I agree with @Ph3 that it does depend where you live and which grammar school you're considering. If you're prepared to mention the area/school, it would help.

Round my way (West Midlands) mid way through Y4 is certainly not too late to start, and a bright child with a good attitude would have a good chance of a grammar place with sensible preparation (either just home prep using workbooks or a bit of tutoring.)

Your daughter sounds keen, and it sounds like you have a useful tutor client to help her out a bit. With your daughter's attitude, she will probably enjoy the work so the time won't be wasted even if she misses out on a place in the end.

Thanks for reply , I’m really new to this . no harm in trying just do t Ewan ther to put loads of pressure on herself . But have said I’m really happy for her to take the test but she can change her mind at any stage

I’m in Lancashire , I wasn’t actually going to start till year 5 , that seems to be what others do . Well what they tell me they have done but you never no . Will take the offer of the tutoring .

To the other that have mentioned sensitive can you explain what that means please

Sorry i miss read the word sensitive 🤪🫣

Starting in Y5 is fine and is what we did. We didn't have a tutor but just did some preparation at home, and our DD did well and is at grammar now.

In the meantime, it's worth making sure your DD is completely on top of school learning and fluent in times tables in particular.

I would also strongly recommend reading with her daily if you're not already doing so - taking it in turns so you can model good reading to her (go overboard with expression!) Just 20 mins every day is fine - but make sure she is 100% accurate with her reading (no missing/adding words or guessing.)

Stop frequently and talk about what's happening, what might happen next, how the words are making her feel etc. Any vocab that is new (or may be familiar but worth exploring) - talk about what she thinks it means based on the context, then look up the word in a dictionary, then talk about other words/phrases that the author could have used instead.

All of this will build her confidence in understanding texts but in a more relaxed way (it is possible to make it fun!) and this will stand her in good stead for when she starts doing 11 plus verbal reasoning exercises in Y5.

Thank you for your reply , maths is not her strong area but is working to expected standard although so feels down about this as her literacy work she find easier . Her times table are her strongest point with in her maths I’m not sure if it because she has a really good memory but she seems to be very fluent in them . We do read every night she goes through phases of wanting to read all the time and then not so much . I want it to be fun for her and not a chore, but I’m sure they will be tears along the way . I’ve told her there is absolutely no pressure from us as a family . My husband side of the family all went to grammar and loved it . My husband passed but decided not to go at last minute. I went to a pretty average school and did ok . Although hadn’t realised how bad my spelling was until my daughter pointed out my spelling mistakes. 🫣

That will help if she is fast at her times tables, but the 11+ is a lot more difficult maths such as fractions and percentages, transformations, complex word problems. Some of the harder questions were difficult for adults to answer! Have a look at the content and if someone wants to do it, they will need to prep little and often. And step it up as you get closer to the exams.

I think this is a no brainier, OP. Tutoring in exchange for haircuts seems fair to me, as long as you think the tutor is good. What are the downsides of trying for the exam? Just don’t put any pressure on your DD so she doesn’t think failing is the end of the world.

@Alisaann

I would like to reassure you without angering any strong supporters of the grammar school system.

Whether your DD goes to the grammar or the good comprehensive she will do equally well.

You are clearly a very caring mum who values education.

Regarding trying the 11+ exam - I would say it depends on what the exam is testing. Exam prep for the sake of exam prep can sometimes be a waste of time if it doesn't tie in well with what the curriculum. Have a look at the 11+ past papers for your grammar school, if they are testing relevant curriculum subjects just a bit expanded its worth brushing up and preparing. This will put your child in a good position for starting year 7 anywhere.

However if the tests are not directly related to curriculum i.e. very NVR heavy and the grammar is super competitive (i.e. a lot of prep is normally required to pass - speak to the parents of kids who passed). I would say you're better off going the comp route and using the time to brush up all the key aspects of Key Stage 2 and maybe looking at Key Stage 3 stuff a bit earlier. Its good to start year 7 confident in your knowledge and skills. It will make them enjoy school a lot more at the beginning.

Evidence for Grammar Schools not being "better" than Comps:

Objective large scale studies have been done on grammar schools which show:

1. No Significant Progress Advantage

• Education Policy Institute (2018): Once prior attainment is controlled for, grammar schools provide only a marginal progress boost compared to comprehensive schools overall.

• Department for Education (2023): Grammar schools excel in raw attainment but show minimal advantage in Progress 8 scores, and are outperformed by top comprehensives.

1. No Clear Social Mobility Benefit (may not directly apply to you)

• Sutton Trust (2017): Disadvantaged pupils at grammar schools do not outperform their comprehensive counterparts in GCSEs.

• Education Policy Institute (2016): Even after securing similar grades, disadvantaged grammar school students are less likely to enter elite universities than their wealthier peers.

I do not buy into the myth that going to grammar school guarantees you higher educational attainment than if you went to a comprehensive school simply because there is no evidence of this happening.

Grammar schools dominanting league tables is just a reflection of selection bias.

If you want to see how well a school functions academically - check the progress score not the raw attainment.

There is one area where grammar schools stand out from comprehensives:

Education Policy Institute report (2018) found the proportion of Free School Meals (FSM) eligible students in grammar schools is around 6-7%, compared to 28-30% in non-selective schools. They concluded grammar schools reinforced socio-economic stratification.

In other words grammar schools are socially selective. I have no views on whether this is good or bad for the individual pupil and some people prefer this for their children. Having said this based on catchment area, good comprehensives are also socially selective by house price!

Thanks , I think she will be fine anywhere . I think she is the sort of child you could put in the middle of any school and she will do fine . I do know kids that have been to grammar and some that have been to a really bog standard school and there has been no difference.

If your dd has asked to do it, then I would facilitate that. Ignore those who say no prep required, you would be putting her at an unnecessary disadvantage. We didn't tutor, just did workbooks at home. You could do a combo of work books and your clien's tutoring as she won't be needing that many hair cuts!

yes will do both .. I’m at a great advantage I know she’s been booked up for the last 2 years and now she is booked up for another year . She’s squeezing her in as a favour . My mother in law is also a teacher so she will be a massive help .

Yes my mum said I should take her up on the offer . It’s really kind of her as she’s always booked up your years in advance .

Will have to see how she goes , she might take one look at the paper and think this isn’t for me . Which I’m completely fine with . :-)

Hi OP, get the tutor- I would say year 4 is too early to start actual 11 plus papers but it would cover things she is less confident on to go in to year 5. My daughter had a tutor at the start of year 5, I will be starting my son with her in year 4. Practice is needed in the way the questions are worded and how to do the verbal and non verbal reasoning, its not necessarily the content.