Language classes and bilingual pupils

[Chouchoubidou]

DD starts year 7 next September. She will have to choose between French and German. I'm French and I brought her up speaking French, so she's completely fluent. Hubby is Brazilian, and she's also fluent in Portuguese. None of us speaks any German.
We'd like her to do French and Portuguese GCSEs, as she'll definitely get good grades. Even if she's fluent in both, she'll still need to work hard on learning how to write. She's not keen on learning German.
As she already speaks 2 foreign languages, we think it's OK for her not start a 3rd one, one we can't even help her with at home.
That's why we would like her to do French at school instead of German. The time she'd spend studying it can be spent improving her litteracy in French and Portuguese.
I've once heard that some schools refuse to let bilingual children pick a language they already speak. I don't know where her new school stands on this matter, and I'm keen on maybe just choosing French for her, say nothing and see what happens.

What's your experience with secondary schools' policies on languages for bilingual pupils?

That has been my experience... My DD got 7 in her mocks, I hope she gets an 8 but we'll see!

@MissScarletInTheBallroom I, too, used to think that bilingual people have an edge when learning a new language.

However, I was very surprised when I noticed that Catalans, who are pretty much all bilingual in Spanish and Catalan, are not any better at English than their fellow Spanish citizens living in a part of the country where Spain is the only language

A recruiter I once knew thought that the Portuguese speak a better English than the Spanish because they subtitle, don't dub, American movies.

But then I wonder why the Dutch and the Scandinavians tend to speak such a good English compared to other Europeans

If the op’s DC is truly bilingual tho then KS3 French will just be dull.

If they just speak and understand a bit, like my examples from my own teaching then yes, that would be beneficial. Without meeting the student there’s no way of knowing their true level.

Btw schools do not have resources to offer separate advanced classes to bilingual DC.

Being a native Spanish speaker I think it's because Catalan and Castilian are very similar. Technically I don't speak Castilian and understand it all. Most Romance languages (apart from Romanian) have some degree of overlap and we can understand each other without speaking the other language.

What type of school is she going to and will there likely be other bilingual children? For example, in many private London schools there are other bilingual children and they will extend them and may even have enough for their own set. In state schools, not so much. There she should take German and join the French GCSE class much later on as she will get immensely board. Do the school not offer Spanish? That would probably be the best 3rd language for her to do given the ones she already knows.

Sorry typo, she will get “bored” with standard Year 7 French in a state school. You can ask to join the class from Year 9 potentially. You really need to ask the school and work with them.

Speaking as someone with significant experience in this field, both from my own background and from an academic perspective, whilst it’s true that polyglots may have a cognitive advantage when it comes to the wiring of the language acquisition areas of our brains, we are often very very poor scholars of languages in terms of the skills and simple graft involved. See OP’s comment about not wanting her DD to take German because neither parent speaks it - that’s the kind of comment you might expect to hear from a rather insular monoglot family. If we don’t remember acquiring our second or third languages we have no appreciation of the processes involved.

OP’s DD should take German because it is hard to learn a language as a total novice and it will be very good for her to develop the academic discipline to do so. It will also help her grammar in English to learn a Germanic language as she clearly has Romance languages covered. She can take her native languages as GCSEs in Year 9 and if her parents have neglected her literacy in those languages then they have two years to do something about it!

Whilst someone who already speaks a particular language is obviously at an advantage over someone is completely new to it, I don't think you can assume they'll always get top marks in exams. I know it's not quite the same, but when all said and done, not every native English speaker aces GCSE English do they, and definitely not A level!
My MIL is from a European country and some years ago, just for her own interest, she did both her native language and English language A levels at night school. She got an A for English and, much to her horror, a B in her own language! I think it was because she studied the English grammar etc with great vigour but assumed she knew the technicalities of her own language. Obviously having a great vocabulary and easily understanding a language both spoken and written must be a huge advantage, but there's more to studying a language as an academic subject than simply being able to speak it. I think I'm fairly literate but I don't think I could walk into a GCSE English exam now and get a top grade without some teaching and knowing how the mark schemes work etc.
So I think that whilst it is probably generally easier for someone who already speaks a language to do well in exams, it's not necessarily pointless for them to study it. That said, given that initial MFL teaching in secondary school assumes no prior knowledge at all, I think a genuinely bilingual child would probably be bored and I might be inclined to steer them towards a different subject. I could see how it might be an advantage in terms of freeing some revision time etc for their other GCSE subjects though.

She will be bored to death for 3 or so lessons a week. Or she’ll be used as a class assistant because the teacher cannot do much else with her while everyone else is learning how to say hello.

Ask for her to do German. Tell her that she has to make an effort, but it’s for interest only and she doesn’t have to keep it up for gcse.

my DD is bilingual. She’s doing a different language for the next two years in school, which she can continue or drop at her own choice.

I think it partly depends on how similar the languages are to each other.

I would imagine that the Dutch and Scandinavians speak better English partly because no one else speaks their languages (which is a powerful motivating factor) and partly because English is linguistically closer to their languages than romance languages like French/Spanish/Italian/Portuguese. Dutch is supposedly the easiest foreign language for a native English speaker to learn, so I expect the same is true the other way round.

English is basically a mix of old German and old French, so both Germanic languages and romance languages should be quite accessible to a native English speaker like the OP's DD.

yes indeed @MrsAvocet it's not as simple as "I can speak French so I will pass the exam with a top grade". Even at GCSE, even a truly bilingual student will need some help with exam technique and what sort of things to include.

And yes for A level, while fluency is of course a big advantage, it will not, as I have said before (!) lead to an A-star with no extra work. Not only is there the issue of exam technique but also the topics.

I have been told on MN before that most people have facts and figures (and I mean actual stats) about gay marriage or numbers of strikes or political engagement of young people (or the other nine topics at A level) at their fingertips in their native language. Well, all I can say is, I am a native English speaker and I don’t have that info to hand. If I needed to recall it for an exam I would need to learn it. Yes, the vocab to use for the most part would be to hand but there is still a lot of learning to do.

<rant over>

Could you look at private tutoring to get her written French and Portuguese up to standard, then taking the GCSEs early, in say Y9? And then taking German at school This is what I did. Studied Spanish from Y7, took GCSE French with a bit of tuition in y9. I was already fluent in spoken French.
?

She'll be bored to tears by Y7 level French.

As an anecdote - my Anglo French nephew got a very poor grade for English in his IB, because he never paid attention in English because he thought he already knew it all!

My kids took Portuguese GCSE in year 9 as an additional language. They are bilingual.
Then in year 11, they took just one second language (French and German respectively ).
I agree their mind is set on picking up easily new languages but they didn’t want to add a fourth language even if their school prefers kids to take 2 languages at GCSE, because they say it is confusing managing 4 languages in their life. Difficult to remember which rule belongs to that language or another ..

On the surface both my DC are bilingual but despite speaking fluent English and reading extensively in English DC1 has never been taught to write/spell in English (we don't live in the UK and they're being educated in the native language here which is DH's nationality/language). DC is in Year 7 and though English is one of their best performing subjects, they have to work at reading and writing assignments to score high marks. My other DC is in a bilingual primary so is getting support in writing (I'd consider them fully bilingual). We did one parent one language so they have always spoken only English with me and have always read with me in English

I work in an international school and if students have not been explicitly taught in their mother tongue for primary years, then they often struggle with vocabulary and writing in their native language, even if they continue to speak it at home with their parent(s). In this case, studying it as a second language learner may help them focus on these areas, though the level in a beginners class may well be too low for them. In this case, extra coaching outside school could help supplement first language teaching if available.

As a parent, what would your child prefer or enjoy? If their interest is in another area (sciences, arts, humanities) then I would have no problem with my child taking the 'easier' option of a mother tongue (this would probably be the choice my DC1 would make). DH on the other hand would probably push them to broaden their language skills (students here tend to take at least 2 MFL through secondary school, we're only 5km from a national border where they speak a major European language).

@MissScarletInTheBallroom I know many Dutchies who would disagree with you that it's easy - they insist it's one of the hardest to learn 😂The sentence structure is very different to English and it took me yonks to be able to speak without planning my sentence out in my head first!

The Dutch are obsessed with learning languages because nobody speaks Dutch, and they love being able to show off at how skilled they are. DH speaks English, German, Italian, some French and Spanish (better than mine), and picks up smatterings of anything else wherever he goes - Indonesian, Vietnamese.

@PForParent the Dutch were also forced to develop their language skills as such a large trading power in the past (and even now, there's so much cross border work - in DH's profession he will have to speak to suppliers in Germany, Italy).
They also use subtitles for everything and don't dub anything so get used to hearing foreign languages. I didn't notice before I moved here but in the UK foreign leaders speaking on the news are always either dubbed or they answer in English. Also at least 50% of TV here is UK or American English, lots of English language music is popular. DH said he learnt English from watching The Muppet Show as a kid. Even my MIL, who had never had an English lesson in her life, used to watch subtitled American soaps.

@IbizaToTheNorfolkBroads did he take English A (first language - with literature and analysis) or English B (2nd language - reading, writing, speaking, listening) because that would also make a huge difference! Not all native speakers are good at Language A, and in Language B it will still require some prep and effort to get top marks.

Who would teach the one child who needs to work on their high level French skills?

Well, my thoughts are either the children work on the side and the teacher can oversee this. This is what my dd currently does in her class. The teacher gives them appropriate texts/work sheets to do during class and will answer question if needed and look over it after. Also, in dd year there are enough fluent speakers to form a class between two year groups (but this is not done). But I don't see why not. This would probably work for the other languages too...

They would have to be some very committed and dedicated 11yos to sit to one side working while the class was taught a bunch of French they already knew. Well done to your DD but that’s not a class I would want to be in charge of.

Ah yes, she attends a very academic school, so all the girls are quite committed to learning. It is not what you imagine of children on the side disrupting the class or not paying attention. They do the work they are told and prepare to take their GCSE in the language a year early.

I've had DC at 4 separate secondary schools. None want native students of a language in the introductory-level lessons (it's simply not an appropriate class for them without intensive differentiation from the teacher and it lends itself to behavior issues) and all want students to have the experience of studying a new language in secondary because it's a different process/skill than early childhood acquisition.

The rules and school preferences around language selection during the last two GCSE years and sitting off-timetable exams aren't necessarily the same, though. Your DD can potentially still take German (or Spanish or another language on offer) in years 7 and 8 but then choose to sit a French GCSE either by joining GCSE French classes in Y9 or 10 or working with a tutor.

Because it doesn't count in the league tables.

Lots of things don't make sense. A student who works visually and is capable or grade 9 in art, photography, graphics and drama often has to pick just one GCSE from the arts and must take 2 or 3 science GCSEs.

@PatienceOfEngels Dutch has contributed a lot to Indonesian so it is no surprise he can pick it up easily.

So kantor post and postkantoor.

Also Dutch is spoken in Belgium (with a silly accent according to one student I taught) and South Africa, the Caribbean and Suriname.

I understand that some children might get distracted, but just don't understand how it seems so many children nowadays would not be able to sit a focus for a 45 minute lesson doing their own work? At least from the comments I get here I get that impression. My ds is in year 6 and he is allowed to read a book when he is done his work in class, dd and a few other students do their own higher level work in French (year 8). I can understand if the child is very young like my 5 year old, if left to their own devices, probably most would get distracted. Another dc in year 6 has the opposite problem of not being advanced enough in the second language, as she joined recently so she is put to the side to do duolingo on the ipad while the others have class as normal.

Meant to add, that I have had a different experience from what is mentioned here about the anticipated behavior issues in class if bilingual children are given separate work.

Well it depends
My Ds only speaks English at home, it’s his mother tongue .

But, he will do all his formal education in German. Day to day at kindergarten, school etc is all in German.
So apart from what we teach him, he will have had no formal education in English. No grammar or writing daily. So I would want him to learn that in an English class at secondary, even though he will have no problem with speaking and understanding.

It seems bizarre to want him to start Italian or French, before he can act actually read and write in English.

He’s still young so I have no idea what actual level he will be at secondary.
Also he will have to work harder at German as we don’t use it at home, and our grammar isn’t fluent either to teach him

What can I tell you? It's hard enough for plenty of DC to focus on the work
when there is a teacher leading it and explaining what to do.

So I imagine some students at least would struggle to focus for a lesson when pretty much left to get on with it. Teaching an MFL lesson is pretty full on and I wouldn’t have had time to go and support a separate group during it.

I have never done this separated lesson tbf so I am not saying it's impossible; but if you have been in a secondary classroom lately you will know that behaviour is a real challenge. And I left classroom teaching a few years ago –since when it has got worse* I gather.

*not because of me leaving of course! haha