Graveney Secondary

[kittycat2014]

I'm thinking of applying for a secondary place at Graveney for my 10 yr old son this October, I'm not in the catchment area, so am aware of the score of the Wandsworth Test will need to be high!
Does anyone have any information on how the classes are streamed, how many in each stream and what are they called?
And any opinions on Graveney would be great.

there are kids that come from far to the school, however will depend of how well your kid does in the Wandsworth test to get in from it. Saying that, there are a few post with info, and frankly, Graveney is like marmite. Our experience was totally awful and won;t recomend it to anyone, other families love it. Looks can be deceiving.

That is interesting to hear that Graveney is like Marmite, I've heard really good things about the school.

Just prepping for the wandsworth test in a few weeks. Is t me or is 30seconds average per question particularly brutal? I’d heard on the grapevine the timelines have recently reduced, does anyone know if this is new for 2025 or has it been the format it is this year for a number of years?

just looking at those NVR questions gives me a headache 🤣

Honestly, the Wandsworth Test pressure isn’t worth it for what Graveney actually offers. Even if you get in, they spring another unannounced CAT test in Year 7, which just ramps up the stress. Looks good on paper, but the reality is very different once you’re inside.

Can you please elaborate on this Y7 CAT test? When is it? Is it used to determine if pupils are to be dropped from the top stream?

If your child is in the top stream, they will get the best teachers and will probably have a good experience. If not, their experience will probably be patchy at best and neglectful at worst. Lots of bad behaviour and drugs across the school.

The unannounced CAT test happens in the first term of Year 7, and yes — they can and do ‘demote’ children to a lower stream based on it. They also reshuffle kids into different classes and sets after February half-term, often with no explanation or prior warning to parents

They do move kids around, some from the upper stream get dropped down, and a few from the middle move up. But it’s all very subjective, and not just about results. ‘Best teachers’ is relative, it usually means those the school chooses to prioritise, and SEND pupils rarely get that chance, even when they’re capable of extension work. For the biggest school in Wandsworth, their intake of SEND pupils has been ridiculously low for years, which is very revealing. Add to that the bullying, bad behaviour, and drugs that many parents report, and it’s no surprise the experience outside the top stream is often patchy at best. And let’s not forget: Tooting Primary, part of the same Trust, has already lost its ‘Outstanding’ rating after similar faililings, particurlarly in the SEND front.

@77summers Of course every school will have its fans and its detractors.

Is your point that it didn't work for you, but might work for others?

Or did you find that the rules are so inconsistent that it's the luck of the draw?

I have heard many people say that it's really like two schools in one, and that, if you can't make it into the top stream, it's not really worth it.

I am aware that many schools are not SEND-friendly (some are actively hostile).

But are you saying that, even for children who don't have special needs and who get in the selective stream, it would still not be a good choice?

I'm not challenging you, I'm just interested in your opinion (again, fully appreciating that every school will have fans and detractors). Thanks!

Good luck with the test prep.

I've got recent experience of the school as a parent. What would I say in response to some of the comments and questions:

(1) I'm not really sure about the "two schools in one" suggestion - certainly most teachers teach both the top and middle [I'm less sure about bottom but I expect it's similar] streams and what they're taught is broadly similar.

(2) There's [to my mind] a significant overlap in academic standards between the top and middle streams - it no doubt varies year by year [since e.g. in the past there have certainly been variants on a 'top extension' class rather than them all being roughly equal, something like that may well be brought back in the future if it hasn't been already]: the top 5, maybe even the top 10 kids in a typical middle set class will be often be stronger than the bottom 5-10 in top set. And then when they get to GCSE a not tiny number of subjects aren't even setted, everyone from all streams is thrown together, which makes you wonder what the streaming was for other than segregation [which many parents presumably like?] as an end in itself.

(3) There probably are toxic elements to the streaming. There are very stark, jarringly obvious, differences in the ethnicity and socio-economic class of each stream. You'd nearly always be able to guess what stream a class was from just by eyeballing the kids lining up together.

(4) I don't think movements between sets are based on school CAT tests, more all-round assessments of academic progress, which may or may not be objective. At least sometimes a by-product of the in-year movements between sets is to even further homogenise the backgrounds of the kids in the classes.

(5) Every year's intake does seem to end up with a fair sized 'in crowd' of kids [mostly white, upper middle class] who take it upon themselves to try to recreate old episodes of 'Skins' on Ch4, with a lot of drinking and worse starting in year 9 [or earlier]. More so than other schools in the area? I really couldn't say. I suppose it's quite rare for a London state secondary to have so many kids from relatively moneyed, relatively liberal [white] families. I can't say I've heard of any unusual number of outright disasters resulting from these behaviours, but others might.

(6) No-one's mentioned it but if it's your kids' thing then music and sports are both taken far more seriously, to a far higher standard, than at I daresay any other local 'comprehensive'.

(7) The school fairly plausibly claims to get good academic results/progress for kids in all of the streams, from all backgrounds. I wouldn't pretend to be nearly familiar enough with how these things are scored to comment on the veracity of these claims.

@puffyisgood Thank you for your time!

And then when they get to GCSE a not tiny number of subjects aren't even setted, everyone from all streams is thrown together, which makes you wonder what the streaming was for other than segregation [which many parents presumably like?] as an end in itself.

Oh, this much wasn't clear to me. So do you mean that the streaming is only for years 7, 8 and 9, but by Y10 they mix them all back together?

There probably are toxic elements to the streaming. There are very stark, jarringly obvious, differences in the ethnicity and socio-economic class of each stream. You'd nearly always be able to guess what stream a class was from just by eyeballing the kids lining up together.

Not the first time I hear it. Do you have any experience of other schools, eg Chestnut in Balham (art and language specialist places) or Harrys Wimbledon (music specialist places)?

I have heard contradicting feedback. Some claim that the specialist places there are less diverse, some claim that the language places give an edge to bilingual children regardless of wealth, some claim that the main reason Chestnut has improved over the last 15 years is because the area has gentrified and attracted more academic kids.

There's also the matter of whether such a large school as Graveney could be overwhelming. That's hugely subjective and will vary a lot from kid to kid.

On your first question - it's so complicated and as I said seems to be forever being tweaked over the years, so even what I say here is spot on it might not be exactly right when it's time for your kids to attend.

Over the last few years it's gone something like:

Year 7 - three streams [top, middle, bottom] for the ten form groups, kids do every subject with their own form group other than maybe PSHE & possibly something else I'm forgetting. PE is done within class but maybe paired up with another class which might well not be from the same stream.

[midway & end of year 7 especially, also year 8 to a lesser extent - strongest/weakest performers get moved up/down]

Year 8,9 - as above but maths [and possibly modern languages] are setted, so e.g. the top maths set will be mostly top stream kids but will probably have some middle stream kids too.

Year 10,11 - the forms don't change but [this is where it gets really complicated] there are three new non-form-based subject streams [I think called 'North', 'Central', and 'East', don't ask me which is worst or best]. There's a very strong correlation indeed between your y7-9 form stream and your y10-11 subject stream but also plenty of exceptions. Then individual subjects are either, this is where it gets complicated:

(a) Not setted at all, it's a free for all, the best kid in the year might be in with some of the worst [maybe not the very worst, idk];
(b) Unsetted within subject streams [e.g. the best kid in 'North' might be with the worst kid in 'North', but not with anyone in Central]
(c) Setted within subject streams [e.g. there might be a 'North 1', a 'North 2', a...]
(d) For all I know I've missed another three models or more out.

I think that model (a) is the rarest and (b) the most common? Even an interested parent stops paying attention past a certain point.

I don't know Harris Wimbledon at all.

Chestnut I know quite well, including some current kids & parents. I quite like what I see of it, honestly, though some kids definitely have mixed experiences there. Comparing it with Graveney isn't straightforward, certainly there are circumstances under which I'd much prefer it (eg if you were talking about an arty kid who lived closer to Chestnut & who wouldn't get into Graveney top stream).

I think you’ve captured the positives and negatives well. One thing I’d add is that Graveney has already been accused of racism and ableism in the past. So when you see the very stark differences between sets in terms of ethnicity and background, or the way SEND kids are treated compared to “VIP families,” it’s not just anecdotal, there’s a pattern. This feeds into why so many parents feel the school is two-tiered, both academically and socially.

Honestly what secondary school is considered politically correct these days? Genuine question! Especially in London, people are complaining about every type of school, especially privileged people. How about just being grateful for free universal state education and having a lot of choice and options?

@puffyisgood Comparing it with Graveney isn't straightforward, certainly there are circumstances under which I'd much prefer it (eg if you were talking about an arty kid who lived closer to Chestnut & who wouldn't get into Graveney top stream).

And for a non-arty, academic kid lucky enough to qualify for a specialist place at both? I.e. Wandsworth test at Graveney and language specialist place at Chestnut? Would you say the difference is much of a muchness?

Graveney have a very strong music programme. They also offer French, Spanish and German. At Chestnut, they offer Italian instead of German. The Italian is quite unique at GCSE level. It may just be for the language aptitude kids. It is those kind of details and what is on offer at GCSE that sets schools like this apart. For Graveney at least the full curriculum is on the website.
There was a trip in autumn for Year 7 DS liked the look of.
The Sixth Form is huge.
We ended up at a grammar school, but I have no doubt the music would have been better at Graveney (DS did two Grade 8s in Year 6).

We live locally and are prepping for the Wandsworth test now. 30 seconds per question is crazy, I definitely couldn't pass.

We know a few people with kids in extension at Graveney and they are all very happy with it. Anecdotally the couple of people I know who were moved down from extension didn't get in as the top 70 on the Wandsworth test - they were in the other 50 local/siblings so came in lower on the WT.

We also know people who didn't get Graveney and are at Chestnut Grove and are really happy with it too. You can have mixed experiences with bullying/drugs etc at any London school (private too!) but we're lucky to have these great options in Wandsworth.

Hoofing this because I recently heard something about y10 classes at Graveney, apparently no setting at all for MFL, so e.g. in a single GCSE French class you'll have some kids wrestling with the subjunctive whilst others haven't quite got the hang of saying their age & how many siblings they have etc. It does seem very odd to persevere with the divisive/controversial streaming thing but then in some cases ditch any kind of banding at all just at the time when results are about to start to matter.

@puffyisgood Really? That seems odd. So they stream for the first years, then stop that just when the kids have to prepare their GCSEs? That seems odd

Unfortunately how kids divide into streams and sets was, I found, one of the points on which there was the least transparency in many schools, when we went to all the open days and in general when trying to look into a school

That's what I was told for MFL specifically. I assume they still have banding of some kind for other core subjects, otherwise it'd have been mentioned.

I live close to the school and looked around it for my child a couple of years ago. It was made quite clear that the schools resources and focus was on the high achieving kids. It felt like if a child wasn’t in that category then it was tough tit. We were shown around by a couple of sixth formers, neither of which had attended the school and who had taken GCSEs at local (Dulwich) independent schools. If you have a driven, exam focused child then go for it but if you’re looking for support and encouragement I would look elsewhere.