SW London schools: info on Graveney, Chestnut, Hurlingham etc

[PForParent]

I would like to get some thoughts on secondary state schools in the Wandsworth area.

We are ruling out single-sex schools, and super-strict schools like Ashcroft.
Private schools or moving to another area are not realistic options, for a multitude of reasons.

Our priority is to find a reasonable balance between a school which is reasonably rigorous, but not to the point that it crushes kids' spirit with petty, capricious, unnecessary rules and punishments. Eg think of the scandals at Holland Park School or Mossbourne, with well-documented cases of emotional abuse.

Our impressions so far:

Graveney: seems great if we can get in with the test (we appreciate it's not easy).

Chestnut in Balham: seems less academic than Graveney but still a reasonable balance.

Ashcroft: never ever ever. Detentions for cycling to school? Please. And the supposed "catch up" if you miss a day is bs: they simply put you in a detention room, there is no teaching. Way too much homework: the kids we know who go there have given up all their other activities, have stopped reading, that's really extreme.

Hurlingham Academy in Fulham: Impressions were good. Seemed a reasonable balance. Some doubts about the school not having sixth form.

Saint Cecilia: we know many families whose children are happy there. But it seems one of the least academic, and with very little homework (the opposite problem to Ashcroft)

Harris Wimbledon: very mixed feedback. Some say it's a very good and very academic school, some say it's far too strict.

Harris Battersea: very mixed feedback, but in the opposite sense to Harris Wimbledon: some say it's good, some say it's not academic enough.

Southfields Academy: terrible impressions. The kids seemed feral. It seemed the least academic of the whole list.

When sharing your thoughts, please:

• respect our preferences. If Ashcroft or a single-sex works well for your kids, I am very happy for you, but don't try to convince me to send my kids there. If someone asks for a Chinese restaurant you don't tell them that Indian food is better :)
• please try to take into account not just your personal experience, but how someone else's experience might differ. Eg our kids are reasonably happy at their primary, but I'll be the first to say it's one of those "my way or the highway" type of schools, and it's not a good choice for anyone with any kind of special needs

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts! Thanks a lot!

Merton doesn't publish academy or church school data (which is really annoying as they are the majority of schools in the borough 🙄). They just tell you to ask the school directly.

It's obviously very personal, I think Latin is a great base. They offer modern European languages too, (French and Spanish from memory, but also others as after school clubs). They are also very strong in drama.
We completely ruled out Ashcroft and didn't even put it on our list. Both my husband and I hated it during the open day and we found the location very inconvenient, despite the good results. Our neighbour's kids go there and are happy, but I also heard of kids having nervous breakdowns there, so it wasn't for us.
Graveney was our first choice, but the WT results our child got (235) mean that probably there is no chance of getting a place. It's also a huge school, which could be a shock coming from a small primary.
We didn't look at Harris Battersea due to location, Wimbledon is better for us. But I also think that being undersubscribed could be due to demographics; it's an area that is more and more gentrified, a lot of children might be going private and other residents might be older without school age children.
St Cecilia seems a great school when you visit, and the pastoral care is wonderful. But the results are not that good so I wasn't very impressed. The location isn't very convenient either, not many buses and only the tube, so it was far down our list in the end (even though we would 100% get a place on the religious criterion).

Not sure if you have girls at all, but Ursuline High School for Girls in Wimbledon is also a great choice, so is Ricards Lodge.

@PatientVesta your comment about Harris vs Ashcroft is very valuable for us, thanks a lot.

For us it is very important that someone who values discipline but disapproves of Ashcroft finds that Harris Wimbledon is a more reasonable compromise. To be clear, you got the sense that rules at Harris Wimbledon were strict but fair, right? Not like Ashcroft?

PS single sex schools are not for us, but thanks for pointing out the option

You appear to think exactly like us. We 100% value discipline and think it's essential, but Ashcroft goes too far.
For example, I agree with the no phone rule, but to deny children to have a phone on their way to school is unreasonable in this day an age, especially for safety reasons.
We also ruled out single-sex schools, but thought was worth mentioning.
As for Harris, I think you would not be disappointed. I know parents with children there and they are pleased. Hard-working professional parents, which I think eventually will influence the school results, so it's a win-win.

Just to clarify, there is no Harris Southfields, there is Southfields Academy, which is NOT part of the Harris Federation. Southfields Academy doesn't have a reputation and we didn't even consider it.

Yes, absolutely. Southfields Academy is completely unrelated to the Harris federation.

However, both Harris Battersea and Southfields Academy are under subscribed.

My understanding is that Southfields doesn't have a great reputation, but some commenters have had good experiences.

More surprising that Harris Battersea remains under subscribed even after being rated outstanding in 2023. Hopefully it's more to do with the demographics (rich families going private + many childless households there?) than the quality of the schools. We will try to look into it.

I honestly think it is to do with demographics in Battersea. But as I said, we didn't look into it. Where about roughly are you? It's quite a distance to Wimbledon so I'm surprised you are looking at both?

Harris Wimbledon has this weird system with 3 nodal points and in 2024 we would have just barely got in based on distance. This year, no clue.

Harris Wimbledon would be ca 30 minutes by public transport. Harris Battersea probably 40-45, as traffic is worse and the bus service is less reliable.

PS interesting to note that, when I asked the same question in a local forum, I was totally crucified for daring criticise Ashcroft.

My sense is that some people are so invested in deluding themselves that their children's school is the best, that wherever they live is the best area etc, that they see any criticism or different opinion as a threat

Yes, the transport links to Harris Wimbledon are great. There are lots of buses, there is the northern line, there is Wimbledon station (a bit of a walk but totally doable), which has National Rail, district line and trams.
I think you are spot-on about people deluding themselves. I hear very bad things about Ashcroft as well. Yes their results might be good on paper, but I didn't even consider it to my child (for the reasons outlined above) and we are very aspirational. We would have gone private (as we both did), but opted not to. The decision was not just financial, it was also to give our children a sense of reality and not be brought up entitled and in a bubble. Finally, it's also the positive discrimination aspect, being white middle class, they would totally be in the "discarded" category.

Does your child do any music at all? Their music test is a theory test, which we were totally not prepared to. But DC passed and that's how we got the place.

Oh, I didn't remember about the music test, thanks for flagging.
May I ask what your views were on streaming?
Harris Wimbledon streams students.
Graveney puts them into sets for various subjects.
Chestnut uses sets for maths only.

In theory, I think sets make more sense than streams, because sets allow you to be in the top group for 1 subject but the middle. One for another.

In practice, I appreciate our choices may be limited so we cannot realistically rule out schools just because of sets vs streams

What do you mean by sets? Do you mean SATs results?

I have mixed feelings on streaming. I think it's great if your child is in the top stream, but not so great if they are not. The theory is that they learn better by being with children of similar abilities, however I think having mixed abilities also has its benefits. I'm on the fence on this one, but all schools seem to stream them one way or another, even St Cecilia's.

If I understand correctly, streaming means that children are divided into groups by ability, but there is one group for all subjects.

Sets means dividing by ability by subject.

Harris Wimbledon says on its website that it uses streams.
At Chestnut they use sets only for maths.

What do you know about St Cecilia? When I asked at the open day they said they use neither sets nor streams.

I don't know much, but they divide the classes based on ability, that is for sure because I also asked. What criteria they use I am not sure.
What I heard is that a lot of schools (if not all) use the SATs results to stream the children in year 7. Then they start using their own results.

OP, I saw your posts elsewhere and I wasn’t surprised by the reaction to some of your comments. I do think you’re getting a little too granular on this whole thing. The reality is that most of the schools you have cited are good and children with motivated and engaged parents are likely to succeed. I know parents with DC at most of them too and all are happy.

However, I fear that none of these schools will quite measure up for you and you won’t be happy with any of them.

I'd be curious why you think I wouldn't be happy with any of them.

Have I said anything which is unreasonable, or have I shown unrealistic expectations?

Have I rubbished all these schools or have I said that quite a few seem, in fact, like very reasonable compromises among all the things which are important to us?

I seem to remember that, on the contrary, I am looking into the details but not fixating on any of them, not fixating on which languages they teach, whether they use streams sets or else, and I have said very clearly that I have to be realistic, that choices are likely to be limited so we cannot obsess over tiny details as long as a school is reasonably good and we have reason to believe our child will be reasonably happy there.

What I have done is to show absolute intransigence and contempt for schools like Ashcroft, Holland Park, Mossbourne etc and their methods. I do so because emotional abuse has been well-documented at Holland Park and Mossbourne (this is a fact) and I fear that the same may happen at Ashcroft (this is an opinion) since the ethos is so similar.

This seems to have triggered a number of parents who want to delude themselves into thinking that whatever they have chosen for their offspring is the best option on the planet, and so feel threatened by someone who dares have a different opinion. Of course the presence of so many of this kind of parents, acting as enablers, is exactly what allowed abuse to happen at Mossbourne and Holland Park.

Agree with @Fellontheground OP, you really don’t need to agonise this much. Your child will likely thrive at any of these schools.

Wow, I wasn't aware of any of it and now went online to read and I'm in complete shock!
This is definitely the sort of behaviour that I heard happens in Ashcroft. For example, pupils in detention are shown on the screens. This is not hearsay, it happened to children I personally know. They give you detention for having a shirt button undone (which happens at Graveney too, by the way, to a lesser extent).
Like you, I worry about my child's emotional wellbeing, as well as academia, so these are very important points!

@Wimbledonmum1985 I respectfully disagree.

Only someone who hasn't seen on themselves or on their loved ones the effect that these environments can have on the mental health of a person would speak like you.

I do sincerely hope you will never have to find out the hard way.

And anyway saying that one wants to avoid an environment which may be conducive to the kind of emotional abuse which has been well documented recently in two London schools is not "antagonistic" - not anymore than a woman saying she doesn't want to work for a man who may assault her. But you do you.

For anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about, here are some links with the details.

My concerns are not the paranoid fears of something which can never materialise.
My concerns are that there have been scandals of emotional abuse in two London schools, both rated outstanding; both scandals are fairly recent, and both schools have a very, very, very similar ethos to Ashcroft - hence my concerns.

But, hey, I shouldn't be concerned and I shouldn't antagonise as much, right?

Holland Park School in West London:

It was rated outstanding and was notorious for academic success but draconian discipline. After numerous complaints, an investigation "found a culture of "fear, favouritism and inequality". The findings included inappropriate response to the case of a teacher who had a relationship with a pupil, inappropriate use of the isolation room, destruction of material related to the Ofsted inspection, fialure to support students who had been victims of peer-on-peer sexual abuse.

The headteacher retired. The school was assigned to a different academy trust. No one was held accountable.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-61325597

More than 100 former students complained about serious failings in pastoral care and safeguarding, including illegal off-rolling of students.

they experienced a “toxic and abusive” environment in which some pupils’ emotional and psychiatric needs were neglected, that difficult pupils were taken out of school during Ofsted inspections, and that the school’s leadership encouraged excessive use of shouting as a form of discipline, which left young people feeling “anxious and unsafe”.
They allege that young people were also publicly shamed and humiliated. In one instance they say students’ photos were displayed on plasma screens around school to highlight their behavioural or academic failings.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/sep/08/the-trauma-stays-with-me-ex-pupils-of-london-school-tell-of-toxic-and-abusive-environment

Mossbourne in East London

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czjd383z9lyo

The school, rated outstanding and notorious for its strict discipline (see a pattern?) faces similar allegations of a toxic culture.

teachers told the BBC they joined seminars on how to instil "healthy fear" into the pupils, and that many teachers left the school with a number of mental health issues. Shouting and screaming at students was commonplace.

Allegations included Mossbourne teachers being trained in “healthy fear” and “screaming” sometimes “centimetres apart” from children’s faces, several reports of children fainting in line-ups while being shouted at, and children with special educational needs and disabilities (Send) being punished unfairly and “pushed out” to other schools. Many former students said they had suffered mental health issues due to being afraid in school which had lasted long after they left

For clarity, we are not talking about 2 disgruntled parents, but about hundreds among current and ex teachers, students and parents coming forward.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/dec/07/london-academies-emotional-harm-mossbourne-schools-observer-investigation

Good lord, you’re still harping on about this?

@Fellontheground Why would anyone "harp on" about the risk of emotional abuse, after this exact scandal broke out in not 1 but 2 schools, not in another continent but in the same city, not last century but very recently, both rated not requiring improvement but outstanding, and both with very similar ethos? Yes, it is truly beyond me why anyone might want to harp on about that. I am such a bad parent. Thank you for bringing me back to planet Earth.

I am assuming you’re very active on that long running Mossbourne thread. You clearly have deep rooted concerns and I hope you find a school that meets your specific needs.