How to know if my child is grammar school material?

[user148984678942]

Hello

I was wondering how you knew whether your child is ‘grammar school material’. I live in Kent and in my town there is a grammar school everyone is trying to get into, one secondary school with a good reputation that everyone is also trying to get to and then all the other secondary schools with very dire reputations for both academics and behaviour. We are on the borderline of catchment to get into the good secondary school and I would say it is possible but chances are slim. Looking at the past years data both the grammar school and the good secondary school have similar number of applications per one place.

My DC is still pretty young, Y2 so I cant figure out for the live of me whether the grammar school is the right setup.

I have however friends strongly recommending to sign up my DC to 11+ Yr3 group tutoring then Yr4 and Yr5. I have some friends who put their DC in Yr5 and said in retrospect it was too late and should have done in Yr4 at least.

I personally feel if someone needs 3 years of tutoring then perhaps the grammar school wouldn’t be right for them and even if they get-in they would struggle. However I was told this is not as much about abilities as the fact that the primary school doesn’t necessarily prepare for 11+ exams and starting early means there is a smaller gap to close ie my DC would be learning and progressing at slower peace, making it more comfortable.

I also feel this would be kind of ‘stealing’ their childhood asking to do extra tutoring from Yr3 but at the same time, the alternatives are pretty dire and we are very unlikely to move due to finances. The secondary schools around here had a bad reputation for years now, so I don’t expect that to drastically improve by the time my DC goes to Yr7.

My DC doesn’t really like doing any homework, prefers watching TV and playing as expected, but when does has no issues at all with absorbing knowledge. The feedback we are getting from the primary school always is the same that my DC meets expectations, never exceeds or below.

I am not sure what to do here, if there were some average schools around my area, I wouldn’t consider this at all but with the choices that are available I am really 50/50 what to do.

I’ve also been thinking about this. I’ve got a summer born Year 2 boy who is doing well at school (and got “above age related expectations” across the board in Year 1) but is not “geeky” in the way I was at his age. I read and read all the time, loved puzzles, would set myself my own homework projects to do and wrote loads of stories and poems for my own amusement.

DS by contrast just likes playing with his toys, doesn’t really read independently (despite being in the top reading group in his class) and seems to do a bit too much chatting in class if his last report is anything to go by! I can’t tell if he will mature OR if his good performance so far just reflects having involved parents who eg have always read loads to him, and actually he will end up more average.

It’s probably too early to say but complicating factor for us is that we are moving house for schools so I don’t know whether to include grammars or not. Leaning towards not as I’d hate to put this kind of pressure on DS. Sorry this doesn’t add much but I sympathise!

I’ve had 2 older children, and in my experience, the children ahead in reception and GD in year 2, are the sane children who are GD in year 6, (with the very odd exception.)

My year 4 child is currently in a small 11+ tutor group. He had been working ahead since he started school. He loves his tutor group in a way that other children may love going to football training. It’s fun to him and definitely not as described on this thread.

How do you know how other children peoples children are doing academically though? My daughter seems really advanced for reception but she was also five on the first of September! Would she be very advanced in year one? Well I don't think she'd have struggled but she'd also have been a whole year younger than some of them. I don't have a clue if she's grammar school material or not. The ones who can't speak in sentences yet or hold a pen still have plenty of time to catch up and still stand every chance of overtaking.....

It really upsets me how we try to benchmark such young children because those labels stick, and if expectations on them are lower because they were 'behind' at 4, and 'expected' at 6 then those children might not be given the time and attention from schools to help them to achieve their potential later on.

Don’t listen to the negative nancies. I went to grammar school and loved it - it stretched me mentally, it was wonderful to be surrounded by fairly likeminded kids who wanted to learn and the classroom environment was very calm/encouraging. I didn’t feel under undue pressure but there was healthy competition and encouragement to try hard.

My daughter is 6 and her class teacher has told us she is working in greater depth for everything and expected to be one of their top students as she goes through the school, so 11+ right now seems worth a try. We will probably do some tuition but not until 6 months or so before the exam.

I disagree with all the posters trying to put you off, I often wonder if it’s really just their underlying jealousy/negative feelings towards grammars. You don’t need to be ‘exceptionally gifted’ to get into a grammar, but I would say it’s realistic for the top 2 kids in each classroom.

All four of mine have been through the Kent grammars. My son's Y1 teacher told me she thought he'd go to Oxbridge, and I told her not to be ridiculous - I knew he was bright, but how could she possibly know. Well, he's currently in his third year at Cambridge, so she was right!

I think that you get a good feel for whether they are able fairly young - all of mine were very quick to learn to read, were on the top tables in their early years, and were academically able through primary. They were interested in the world around them and were constantly asking questions.

Kent is hideous in that everyone gets really competitive and ridiculous about it all - an able child shouldn't need more than an hour or so of tutoring and some practice papers from end Y4/throughout Y5 really and if you are starting in Y3 and doing hours a week, then that's a great way to put them off completely!

As others have said, there are always parents who claim their children haven't been tutored - which really means they haven't paid for tutors, but they've been doing stuff at home with them - some of the maths content on the Kent Test isn't taught until Y6, so they do need to be ahead of the curriculum at that point, and as it mostly comes down to speed and pattern recognition on the VR and NVR, the more of that you do, the better - all of mine had loved word searches, logic puzzles, codewords etc.

I’ve had 2 older children, and in my experience, the children ahead in reception and GD in year 2, are the sane children who are GD in year 6, (with the very odd exception)

I'd largely agree with this - while there are exceptions, when I taught Year 1 I was able to predict fairly reliably which pupils would end up at one of the local grammars. It's a combination of natural smarts, inquisitiveness about the world around them, mental attitude and maturity (around here at least, and despite weighting for age, successful grammar school candidates are disproportionately autumn/winter born children).

It’s probably too early to say but complicating factor for us is that we are moving house for schools so I don’t know whether to include grammars or not. Leaning towards not as I’d hate to put this kind of pressure on DS. Sorry this doesn’t add much but I sympathise!

@Ifyouknowyouknowyouknow
We're in the same boat - DD is currently only in Year 2 but we need to move soon as it will likely take a while to get her into a catchment primary for the school we want. We have super selective grammars local to where we live now, but although DD is working at GD in everything (and I do have slight misgivings about removing the grammar option for her as DP and I both attended one and loved it) we don't want to put her through all the hothousing that necessary nowadays, so will be moving to be near a high-achieving girls' comp.

I'm a former 11+ tutor and I'll tell you a secret- it's all a bit of a scam.

A few sessions in Y5 to familiarise them with the test can help.

As for the Y4 group sessions, I could have told you on day 1 which kids were going to pass, and tutoring made very little difference. MAYBE there were a few on the borderline who just squeaked a pass with a lot of tutoring, but they are likely to find grammar school hard.

I had one lovely young man who showed up with 5 weeks to go and I gave him a practise test which he immediately passed with flying colours. I told his parents he was going to pass either way, but did they want to continue, and they said they did in order to boost his confidence a bit. I have no doubt he is going to be doing brilliantly and would have done with or without my help.

I had another girl from Y4 and she was the sweetest kid but I knew straight away she probably wasn't going to get there. Her Mum got me to do some extra 1-2-1s but she just didn't have the mathematical ability to pass, although I pulled out all the stops to try to help her. She went to a Catholic school and last time I saw her she was really happy.

You would expect a grammar school child to be exceeding age related expectations all the way through primary school.

I wonder about DD. She doesn’t ask particularly searching questions about the world around her, not to an unusual degree for her age anyway. She’s not particularly sophisticated in conversation. So absolutely nothing gave away how academic she would be until our 2nd parents evening when they told us she was flying through the work and picks up things without trying in a way that’s ’almost spooky’. Until then we were convinced she was very average.

Does anyone else have a child like this? All I ever read about is clever kids who are extremely eloquent and interested in Ancient Greece etc but DD still makes a lot of poo jokes and couldn’t be less interested in ‘educational’ topics outside of school

We're starting tutoring in y4 which feels about right. My plan is to tutor all my kids and make a decision on the 11+ that's led by them on the basis that a bit of extra tutoring probably won't harm them even if they don't end up at a grammar. I did the 11+ myself and quite enjoyed prep but it was extremely low key which is probably shaping my opinion on it.

I think it has to be a mix of academic ability and the child's personality.

My oldest is at grammar school. She always achieved well at primary but more than that, she absolutely loved learning. On her own accord she would come home and read more about the things she was learning at school. I have always thought she is the exact type of personality that grammar school is suited to.

My second child is in Y5 and taking the 11+ this year. On paper he is probably naturally more academically 'gifted' than my oldest but he does not have that passion for learning and school is very much something he just has to do - zero enthusiasm for any subject. I'm not sure he'd thrive in a grammar environment (but then is that a reason to put him in a school that's just 'okay' if he passes? This is the dilemma!).

My youngest child is not particularly high achieving at school but loves learning all the same. I don't think I would force her to work towards the 11+ if her chances of passing are very small, regardless of her interest in school.

Not Kent so a bit different.
DD was working at greater depth across all subjects from day one and while no teacher in our Non Grammar area school would say she was a good 11+ candidate her Y4 teacher when asked said while she couldn't comment she felt DD would probably do well. We got a once a week tutor from the last term of Y5 for an hour and that was it but the key was DD really WANTED to do it and is very comfortable with exams and tests, I think she actually thrives on them. She did really well in the 11+ but equally academic DC didn't and one child that nobody would have expected did incredibly well. The school wasn't involved at all but the parents whose DC took the test all discussed it and swapped info.
We actually opted for Private instead due to distance
The real key is that the DC have to be motivated to do it and do well, if they aren't up for it its very unlikely and its a shame to make a child do loads of extra work so young anyway.

This is why the grammar school system is terrible. They should abolish all grammar schools and let kids flourish without being stressed by tutoring.

Yes, let’s all sink together.

Because obviously all the children in the majority of the country where there is no grammar school system are sinking. It's an iniquitous system and makes school far more stressful at a very young age. It also doesn't reward the cleverest, just those with parents who can afford to coach their kids.

I adored my grammar school. Did you go to one?

No, I went to a comprehensive school that is one of the top 100 state schools in the country. The education authority I grew up in abolished grammar schools in the 1970s.

No idea why that's relevant unless you believe that only people who went to grammar schools should be allowed to comment about them.

Well only those who went to grammar schools have experience of them.

And if you hadn’t been lucky enough to be in the catchment for a ‘top 100’ comprehensive, would you feel differently do you think..?

Never lost on me that those who rhapsodise about ‘equality of education’ and ‘wonderful state schools’ live in rather wealthy catchments and have access to the best, even if it is ‘a comp’ on paper..

You know nothing about my background. I grew up in poverty. I didn't live in a wealthy area. I agree I was fortunate to go to my school but I didn't have the advantages of other children there and though I was successful I didn't live up to my potential until much later.

As for experience of grammar schools, you haven't had the experience of seeing how attending a secondary modern school undermined the confidence of people who felt like failures when they didn't pass the 11+.

You haven't seen the test scores of girls who scored more highly than boys but didn't go to grammar schools because there weren't as many places for girls as there were for boys.

You haven't seen the kids who did get into grammar school who didn't go because their parents couldn't afford the uniform or who didn't want to stand out in their communities.

You haven't read the research that shows that kids who are tutored to get into grammar schools do not have better exam results than bright kids in the same area who didn't get in or who chose to attend a comprehensive.

And above all you fail to account for the vast majority of children in the UK who are perfectly well educated in comprehensive schools and have been well educated for.thr last 40 years.

There were couple posts from the tutors saying you knew straight away whether the child can pass the exam and do well at the grammar school.

I would be very keen to understand how. A lot of the comments I have seen on this thread don't resonate well with me ie a child working at a greater depth from reception onwards.

My DC for example when started Year2 was at the lower level of book bands for Year2 and by time the term was over in Oct was towards the top without doing any additional work or anything different at all in comparison to Year1.

I guess it doesn't help I wasn't born in the UK or went to schools here. I don't really understand all the fuss about the grammar schools. The way a friend explained it to me is that grammar schools are just really good secondary schools and that's how I see it, nothing more nothing less. Some of the posts make me think they are only for (nearly) 'gifted and talented' kids, which I don't believe is the case.

Yes, this. My daughter is in Y5, currently doing small group tutoring for 11+ which she loves. She’s been greater depth through school so far. Still no guarantee of passing the 11+ though…

My DC who is also in an 11+ tutor group has also been greater depth throughout her time at school.

I wouldn’t describe her as gifted or talented and generally I think talent is very overrated in most areas of life. Talent only gets you so far without putting the work in.

She is diligent, curious, interested in learning and reading, interested in a variety of topics, loves school and keen to improve herself.

A lot of PPs don't necessarily understand the 11+ system in much of Kent. Typically, about 25% of children are 'deemed suitable for a grammar school.". I live in East Kent where there can be as many as a third of all children attending grammars after non-qualification appeals (which are often successful). And several grammars are still not full even then.

We got a tutor for our oldest, who was very clear that it is unnecessary to begin tuition before Year 5.

Honestly OP, I wouldn't even think about tutoring to Year 4. You should be in a much better position to assess the situation then.

Just to add, I know loads of children who have attended grammar school in deepest East Kent who were strictly 'expected' level.

My advice - leave Kent and move to a sensible county. And I live here and work in a grammar school! Only moved here a few years ago when children had long flown the nest. I'd never have come with school age children and I have advused my own children who could potentially sprog in the next few years to keep clear. The grammar I work in is one where you are eligible if you pass the Kent Test and thereafter the scores don't matter- usual criteria come into play. The KT creams off the top 25% at age 10/11. What's the point of that? It has such a terrible effect of the neighbouring schools and the grammars themselves are not exactly intellectual powerhouses. I was pretty shocked at first having come from a London superselective which has minimal impact on the neighbourhood and where the kids a megabright. Don't get me wrong- the place I work is very pleasant- but the whole set up doesn't achieve much.

You can just tell, they enjoy logic puzzles, have a wide vocabulary, and catch on quickly. You ask them to do a task and give them a brief explanation and they immediately get the purpose and start working, without needing every example explained in detail. You teach them something one week and they remember it the next week without having to try that hard. It's attitude as well as intelligence- the ones who are likely to pass come across a challenge and find it fun and want to solve it, the ones that won't crumble and give up immediately.