London grammar and private senior school entry 2025 part 2

[CruCru]

Here is the new thread for when part 1 is full.

A large proportion leave for other independent options. According to their website, girls get places in all of the usual top London schools. Being able to stay until 18 feels nice though.

That’s interesting advice @SWLondon100 . Sorry to hear about your experience. We have scholarship offer from current through school where DC is happy vs waitlist (but likely to be offered) for more aspirational school. They’re 50 places apart on league table. DC would be in top quarter at existing school we think and offered enrichment activities vs scraping into more academic school. I assumed the latter would drag DC up and that teaching would be better. Was that not your experience?

This. Best 11+ piece of advice given on mumsnet.

Have you had experience of this @Hatcher? Anyone else out there want to discuss whether being a big fish in a small pond is better than being a small fish amongst luxury koi carp?

We are in similar position @Fableana . Two scholarship in her current school that she absolutely loves ( the school is bottom out of 100 in league tables ) v solid offer from school that is top 20 - I have absolutely no idea what to do ..

We are definitely of the big fish in small
pond type. Our DD is confident and academically able but rather than being driven when surrounded by other bright kids she’s super critical of herself and not being good enough. I can see how other kids thrive and rise to the challenge though!

We were wobbling with taking a more academic school offer over her preferred school, even though she got an academic scholarship offer with the latter. But on reflection the lesser academic school obviously recognises her potential and she’ll be stretched and supported there.

If you have academic scholarship offer are you currently in a prep? I don't see how state kids can achieve academic scholarship level as they are not in a school environment that does prep and tutoring.

is this something prep heads also push for to be able to list secondary offers with scholarships.

🤨 Wow - that is a Mumsnet low!!! I know several children from state schools who have this year (& in previous years through my other DCs) achieved academic scholarships!! The cleverest child in DC2’s (Y9) year group came from a state primary and wasn’t even tutored (which you know is an option for state school kids too…).

Don't be ridiculous- just thinking about my kids state primary- scholarships to Hampton, PHS, WHS, Emanuel, KCS etc etc. other scholarships in Sport and Art.

Lots of very clever all rounder children at the academic secondaries who consistently get the top marks.

In my view a lot of the happiness / unhappiness in these scenarios comes from parental pressure or lack of it and those that do well have parents strongly reinforcing to their child their best is good enough

A long time back but at my highly academic school most of my friends in lower sets that had a wonderful time didn’t have hover parents and were relatively laid back characters that were not constantly comparing themselves. Most of those have gone on to have v successful careers and have positive memories of being valued members of the school

I was middle/upper and similarly have amazing memories as I was driven but accepted there were many people smarter than me. I personally enjoyed that element as some of the smartest kids would often explain concepts better than the teachers to me!

those I saw suffer regardless of ability tended to either have very strong perfectionist streaks, low self esteem and / or excessive parental pressure

it really depends on your child’s character and their core beliefs

Maybe things have changed, but I know a fair number of people who got academic scholarships from state school and even (gasp) economically deprived backgrounds. They got them because they were intelligent. Raw talent, intellectual ability and dedication are able to shine through, without needing extensive prep work, and many state schools are academically rigorous.

I think it's quite hard to know where your children will sit in an academic secondary school as they can change so much. They may also be very good at some subjects and struggle with others.

Completely agree! Well adjusted, happy children tend to accept that some people in life will find things easier and some harder.

@GridGal Yes we are in a Prep but I don’t think that means state pupils can’t get them? It was very unexpected, and DD is definitely not top of class for all subjects (very spikey SpLD profile). I personally know two state school children that received academic scholarships to a top 10 school in the last few years.

I can almost guarantee that the Head of the Prep will be shocked that she received an academic scholarship offer because of her SpLD she basically steered us to non-selectives when discussing school choices. For some Preps possibly Heads have sway and good relationships but for our non selective Prep the influence is minimal (despite the fact they say otherwise).

My point was merely that the lesser academic school obviously saw something in her that they want to nurture - and for us that’s a much more appealing place than getting into a named known more academic school where it’s possible she’ll get lost.

Agree but heard some schools the best teachers are for the top sets, so some parents have moved their kids from being the below average mindsets to schools that would stretch and teach their child. It is hard to see top sets get better teachers etc and your able kids doesn’t get the same experience or teaching level. Some schools the top set seems rather set at Year 7 with very few movements others do move as kids mature and discover an interest in subjects.

Just did 11+ second time and my dc are/were in state school. DD is at G&L. DS we are deciding between Latymer, Emanuel and Dulwich (really at loss on which one to pick).

I would advise stay where you are, unless you don't have time to help with the prep at all or if your dc is not motivated to do some prep on their own. I would get a tutor, that knows what they are doing and then also make sure you prep a bit with them as well.

Yes, had the experience but also read a lot about it. My DC moved from a very competitive school where they were just above average to one where they were top of the class. The effect on confidence was phenomenal.

Then there have been a number of studies. Can't find the most recent (which is UK-based) but an older one is here:

https://ed.stanford.edu/news/stanford-education-study-provides-new-evidence-big-fish-little-pond-effect-students-globally

It is all about the confidence and its effect on performance. Of course a child's grades will eventually be OK in a super-competitive, top-tier, school. They will get support and, if need be, tutoring. But you can't fix confidence in this way, and confidence is a skill for life. Please don't be fooled by the high ranking of the school from which you have an offer. It is short-sighted.

From memory my school only streamed in Maths. Maybe languages in later years

general ethos was in an academic school no need to excessively stream

guess one needs to read the fine print

Yup, they only stream in math at my DD's school, starting from year 8.

Not in fine print always but ask the current parents. Some schools the top set Maths have the same science schedules with top/ head of departments whilst the lower sets have capable but new teachers or those taking over someone on maternity leave. So great academic schools but different experiences. Some schools have year 7 with Maths GCSEs so they doing further maths and focus would be different. As mentioned it depends on each kid, parents and their bandwidth.

This. You absolutely hit the nail on the head about the confidence. You can not fix confidence and once it is crushed, my goodness it is so hard to rebuild.
your child should not “fit” the school, the school has to be right for your child. If you know your child you will know what is the right environment / school for them…this includes discounting schools that are too far away even if they are high ranking…

I agree the above advice of choosing a school where your DC is in top 25% is great. The problem is that often it is very hard to know what your child is capable of - I don’t, for instance. For example, my DD’s friend has been at her current school since 4 and she says she wasn’t good enough to even try for SPGS (which a lot of girls do at that school). Two years later she is now one of the top students at her present school (which is one of the top academic schools in the country), as she started to work v hard and prioritize her studies.

The point is that children mature at different ages and all of us, parents, want to help them realise their full potential. It is hard therefore to give up a place at a top school when your child could actually excel in it, you just never know.

Yea, I am wondering how you choose a school where your dc would be top 25% How would you know?

I agree that it might be hard to gauge ability relative to a cohort, at the age of 10/11. But it is a risk nevertheless since, as PPs mentioned, and a child that will mature later on will do just as well - and in fact better - in the slightly less academic school. Why then take the risk if all these schools are equally amazing in terms of teaching and facilities?

Parents know their kid best, I think. Some questions to ask yourself, particularly if you have tutored hard and long to get a place in a top school:

Is my kid not at the very top of their class because they are summer born and hence they will catch up eventually? Or is it that they have a genuine difficulty grasping harder maths, or with English (eg. creative writing)? Do they have any borderline SEN that is affecting their performance (and hence confidence) and that is likely to stay when they get older? Is their confidence already bruised and hence unlikely to be healed in a super-competitive environment?

My DC’s scores can vary between mid 120s/141 to high 130s. Summerborn. Zero resilience (we have tried)… Hates being pressured at home. Is v confident in class generally, probably as the cohort is not as selective. They’ve been given a scholarship at existing through school. Streaming at that school and aspirational school only happens for maths… In top set currently but has to work a bit at it and may well slip down. Problem is they refused to do much additional work hence not getting (parents’!) top choice of school where we think DC would have fit in perfectly. (But it’s ultra competitive). So what to do with a bright DC who is popular in current setting and already has a great social life (though this could all change in attached senior school due to churn and new influx) but who is also incredibly stubborn and quite lazy (or perhaps ADHD)? Hard to tell whether away from being part of the ‘cool crowd’, whether DC would suddenly be more motivated or whether they would be overwhelmed and hanker after their old, easier life.