Secondary Appeal Advice

[Hecter01]

Hello, can I ask for your advice and wisdom, please.
I am really struggling at the moment on whether to go forward with yet another secondary school appeal for year 9. This would be our third appeal for this school, obviously the previous two were declined and a ombudsman appeal also declined.
My child wants us to appeal as he is so unhappy at his current school, but my husband thinks it is a waste of time and has said a strong no. I am willing to override him if I thought we stood a chance.
Background as follows.....
We are in the catchment for said school but as the year had large cohort we were denied. Went forward with appeal, as did 48 others. The school was at PAN ,but had agreed to take extra for this year group. After appeal process they were just under extra admission, after allowing several in with FAP and ECHP and SEN. 6 places still available to reach extra admission. Which I know they don't have to reach.
Our first appeal, we focused on how our child was affected by not going to this school and that his was the only child from his primary school not to go. Also the school he was going to go to was 8miles out and was difficult with my health to get him to bus stop. We had supporting letters from Dr's and friends and family.

Second appeal for year 8, we understood a bit more on what the panel wanted to hear, how the school in question would benefit our child and override the prejudice to the school and resources.
We did speak about this with a mixture of personal reasons on how he was still unhappy and grades were declining, due to him not wanting to be at this school.
We spoke of if the school was full and not allowing any more children in because of the prejudice to resources etc. Why had they then let several more children in.
This time, I understand even more, I have information on class room capacity. Can argue more on the prejudice affecting my child outweighs the prejudice to school . How the school offers activities in and out of the school that the his current school does not have.
Have all the information on safety within the school. Including accident reports, which are zero.Have information on classroom sizes and TA that are needed.
My point being after reading numerous threads on here and understanding now that you have to prove and argue the prejudice point stronger.
Should I, for the sake of my son's happiness and education, as he will only get one shot at a good education with results, put ourselves through this nightmare again.
Any advice I would welcome.

Where is he on waiting list?

LIZS
Last time we checked 38, the LA said they haven't taken any from the waiting list in the past three years.

It doesn’t sound hopeful. What is the problem with the current school? At some point, you have to commit. This uncertainty is probably not helping. He has two years and six months until the end of Yr. 11 and presumably could move for sixth form. How far is the bus stop from your home; given he is in Yr. 9, is it too far for him to walk?

Are there any other schools nearby that have places/more chance of getting in?

It might be better to pursue this route if he is really unhappy at his current school, then raise expectations (again) that he might be able to get a place at the local school.

LadyLapsang ·
The bus stop is over 2miles away, we don't get a free bus pass. Then 8.2 miles to the school.
The problem is he just doesn't want to be there, his grades are down, he won't do any after school clubs, because he doesn't want me to pick him up after I have paid for a private bus pass. I said I don't mind at all, of course I don't.
He is in year 8 now, and even his teacher's have commented on how he has no confidence. How intelligent his is bit won't try. We have talked to him and encourage him to commit.
We did appeal for other schools closer to home, but was no, over subscribed for them to.

How come you don’t get a bus pass? Were there other, closer schools you could have accepted?

In the most basic sense, you don’t have anything to lose by appealing. But a third appeal with no real change to your circumstances or theirs does seem a bit of a fool’s errand.

If they weren’t already so over PAN then maybe nudging the appeal with the additional info you have about capacity etc. might just swing it, but superficially it does sound like the school will likely have a strong case for being full.

If the Y9 appeal failed (presumably you wouldn’t be appealing for a few months yet), what’s the plan?

If he's 38th on the waiting list, then even if the school have places, they will have to be able to actually find 38 places for your child to get in, that's one and a half more classes in the year group!

Failing that there are going to have to be HUGE reasons why your son NEEDS that place, that don't apply to the other 37 children. Lots of children "don't want to be at school". You might get in, if you can argue that being at the school he is at is bad for his mental health, but you will need to be really clear:

• X happens at his current school...
• X is bad for his mental health because...
• X happens to him (not to the other 37 children on the waiting list) because
• Or other children would cope better with X because...
• X wouldn't happen at the new school because...

If claiming mental health needs the panel should question you on the actions you have taken to access help.

discussions and support in the present School
discussions with health professionals.
discussions with the required school and what they can offer.

Each cohort is different and their needs around SEND, behaviour plans, pastoral supports, EAL, how many E HCPs are in place and in progress,
mobility rates, if teachers are new, deprivation, LAC, CIN CP all have impact.
How many fair access children and hard to place are there?
Any winning appeal children have no funding attached and this has an impact.

The information about the school and the cohort is crucial to the whole argument.

3 miles is the guidance for a reasonable distance and a bus pass.

Thank you all for advice, very much appreciated.
Yes we were offered a school, still 3.8 miles away, but was in "special measures, in need of improvement," had knife crime incidents, year 7 selling vapes. Terrible bulling issues, teachers being hit. Had spoken to a teacher that worked there, he said if we could find another school, we should. Worst performing school in area, still in special measures now.
The only school available with spaces is the one he is now, so we had no choice. But because we turned down offered school we did not get free bus pass.
We gave evidence at all appeals on his mental state, including doctors letter. We were offered counselling, but our son was adement he didn't want to talk about it, because it upset him to much.
In the weeks leading up to and after the second appeal they gave spaces to another six pupils. Some FAP ,some EHCP, which I know they have to, some I don't know the reasons for. Having read school and appeal protocols etc the parents can ask to the preference of the school they wish for, but it is not a given if there are spaces at other schools nearby, which there were.
So if the school in question said no to us, reason being oversubscribed and would prejudice resources and overcrowding, how can they then take in another six, when the school around the corner had spaces available. At the time at second appeal we didn't appeal for the other school.
First year they had 4 EHCP/SEN second year had 6, now from this term they have 12.
The focus is though, what the school could offer, that his doesn't. We can suggest at least five positive points for this. Plus my son would also like to write an impact statement to the panel.

Letters/statements from the child are rarely advisable. At best they’re irrelevant, at worst they come off as an attempt at emotional blackmail.

You also run the risk of your son blaming himself if the appeal fails.

They may not have had much choice in taking those additional six. Also, logic suggests they can say they are full because they have already taken six more pupils than they are intended to. Presumably the school around the corner is the one you turned down?

If you want to appeal, go for it. You presumably have a number of months until you can do so though, so what’s the plan to help him settle over the next few months, particularly in case the appeal doesn’t work.

Sometimes you have to take children LAC, fair access, Hard to place etc
Excepted children from successful appeals. Sometimes the council will request and fund additional numbers above pan if there are insufficient places for their needs.

In our LA the agreement is 3 HTP per year unless you are in RI.

Doctor's notes etc need to name the school and the reasons why.
They must be specific and not all schools have a medical or social needs criterion

If your other appeals failed what are you providing that is different now?

EduCated
I appreciate your advice, thank you.
Respectfully, I disagree with the personal letter, I have read hundreds of threads over the past 3years, and many who have won their appeal, say a personal statement helped, not all obviously.

He only wants to explain how the current situation effects him, as it is him that has to navigate this, he said he can do this better in writing than verbally.
I understand your comment though.
No the school around the corner was not the school offered in year 7, but we did appeal for this school in the first round of appeals.
We have spoken to him in length on how the system works, that it isn't anything he has done wrong. We endeavour to encourage him everyday to settle and join in afterschool clubs, school trips, make new friends, we have spoken to his teachers, but he is still upset and won't engage with the school anymore than he has to.
I am a complete loss, on next move to make.

I have never seen a winning appeal with a child's letter sorry.

I have had parents hold crying children up to the screen to request a school and been cursed by another. Seldom get letters but again the panel may ask questions about what the child has written and actions taken to address the problem.

Respectfully, I disagree with the personal letter, I have read hundreds of threads over the past 3years, and many who have won their appeal, say a personal statement helped, not all obviously.

I have been advising on appeals on here since 2009. I have never seen anyone say that a statement from their child helped to win an appeal for secondary school. If I had seen any such posts, I would have said they were wrong. The letter informing you of the outcome of an appeal sets out the reasons you won or lost, but a surprising number of parents seem to think that they won or lost for reasons other than those stated.

An appeal panel is unlikely to give any weight to a letter from your son. At best it won't help your appeal. At worst, it could make it harder to win by making the panel less likely to give you the benefit of any doubt.

The poster up thread who said 3 miles is the guideline for a reasonable distance and a bus pass is wrong. The guidelines are that a reasonable distance is up to 75 minutes journey each way. The LA must provide free transport if the distance to school is more than 3 miles by the shortest safe walking route, but that won't apply in your case because you rejected a place at a nearer school. However justified your decision may have been, that took away your son's right to free transport. It also means you can't use distance as an argument at appeal.

Thank you all.
I understand that personal letters do not win appeals, neither does verbal abuse.
In my defence, the statement I read out from my son in the first appeal, was judged to be very impactful from the panel. But of course it would not sway them, they are professional and adhere to thr rules of administration. My son only wanted to explain the impact to him and could only do this in writing.
I feel my thread has gone off piste a little.
I 100% know the appeal will not hold any weight with distance,bus passes or that he doesn't want to go school, or even mental health issues.
Quite the opposite he does want to go to school,just desperately unhappy in the one he is in.
I really wanted advice on whether I would stand any chance with the argument over prejudice with resources and overcrowding, even though he is not SEN/ EHCP or FAP, if I take out all the personal information and focus on data and what the school can offer him.

It all depends on what the schools argument is. What issues they are facing. The workload the teachers are already facing already with the needs of the students and parents. They are all different. If the school has a strong case you won't win. You know from previous appeals if the school presented a robust argument or if the panels questions were answered or not.
If you are presenting the same case but you know additional children have been added I think the appeal is likely to be refused.

If there is a medical/ social criterion and you have provided medical evidence naming the school and you are still 38? on the waiting list I would question the strenght of the evidence.

I think in your own mind you appear to know this looks like a poor appeal but want to do the best for your child.

What age is he in the yeargroup?
Could he rrop back a year? Are there spaces in the year below? As her the y7 wasnt oversubscribed at all?
I went to appeal and lost even with sen and loads of other reasons. Their data did show they did take 1 on appeal - but it wasnt one on the day i did mine as neither of us got in.
I wouldnt bother appealing again. Its too dependent on people who dont know the school, area or sen info.
Realisticallg your only chance is getting an ehcp.

However tbh its all quite crazy round here with high sen rates

Well it’s the only chance you have, but it’s all going to depend on the strength of your argument, which it seems has already failed twice, unless you’ve got anything materially different this time.

Platypus, Annon 331
Yes your right ,just fighting for my boys education and happiness.
It's a crazy world eh, when you can't get your child into a school where they would be happy.
Your all right, I think we don't stand a chance. Hopefully he will shine again at college.
Thank you all for comments and advice.

EduCated ·
Yes thanks, for pointing that out.

I am not trying to be dickish, though I recognise my reply will have come across as curt.

Demonstrating prejudice is the only way to win the appeal in this case, so yes you have a chance, but that chance, on the face of it, is low.

I’m not sure if I’m fully comprehending the last question you ask, but any argument of ‘you wouldn’t be overcrowded if you hadn’t taken in FAP/EHCP’ isn’t going to help. I may have misunderstood what you’re getting at there though.

Why are you so certain this school will make him happy?
It’s a big assumption, given that he has zero experience of it and presumably his friendship group from primary will have moved on (as pretty much always happens).

Travel to school for children of compulsory school age

This is the guidance we follow re distances to school

I agree
I also think that perhaps your son is not as settled in his existing school as he might be as he (and you) are still holding onto the hope of the other school.
It would be great if he had got a place there but by appealing repeatedly it isn't helping him move on and accept the school he has.
It does not sound like there are any speacil circumstances or a chance of a place based on the waiting list so the best thing to do would to help your son accept the reality of the fact that he goes to the school he is currently at and thats it for now.
We do always try and fight for our DC and it sounds like you have really really tried but maybe your H is right and its time to just let it go.

He could perhaps be happy at his current school if he changed his mindset. His attitude to it is really not healthy, nor is his unwillingness to talk about it.