St Cats Bramley - exploding scholarships advice

[JJMilford]

We have scholarship offers from StCatherines Bramley, near Guildford. It's an independent girls school.

St Cats have actually been bothering us to accept their scholarship offer - effectively hinting that if we don't accept it, the offer of a normal place will be withdrawn too. Admissions lady has been very pushy and we are a little turned off by it.

I'm sure this is a little bit dodgy and is practically an exploding offer - are they that over subscribed this year?

Is it allowed?

Anyone else?

I'm sorry I don't agree that whole quote is ambiguous. Hence this thread.

Their own statement that "I would therefore be very grateful to receive your written acceptance of this award by Monday 3rd February 2025 or earlier."

The scholarship, as we said, clearly had an expiry, the 3rd February. Which is not allowed.

StCats have clearly realised and I'm glad they have agrees their letter was ambiguous- bu none the less the offer letter was not compliant with the rules and those receiving offers, not on MN will still be under pressure!

The section you quote about the request for info earlier, says ‘if you possibly can’ - this makes clear that they would appreciate an earlier reply from those in a position to give it, but understand not everyone can….hence ‘if you possibly can’.

It also refers to an ‘absolute deadline’ of the later date.

OP, I think it’s you who hasn’t read the messages carefully and understood the difference between requesting earlier replies if possible and stating the absolute deadline.

The school is keen not to receive adverse publicity on a thread like this. They apologise for any confusion as a polite thing to do. They won’t tell you OP that you have misunderstood. However, their quoting the wording of their letter makes it clear to other readers that it was your mistake and not theirs. Not only does their wording make clear the difference between absolute deadline and polite mention of an earlier option for those able to meet it, they also explain clearly why they ask for it. Most peopLe understand that other families are waiting, schools benefit from confirming applicants, but they explain these things gs for anyone for whom it isn’t obvious.

There is zero mention of any offers exploding. Your title for the thread is therefore incorrect, inflammatory and misleading and potentially damaging to the school,hence their need to defend themselves in reply.

I find it odd that you think they’ve admitted fault. They haven’t. They have merely been polite and gracious about your misunderstanding. It seems to be you who is struggling to admit your misunderstanding of what they said clearly and we can all see from the exact wording of the letter.

Usually, I wouldn’t pick up a poster on MN for this stuff. People dig-in with their position all the time and refuse to admit an error….but here, the good name of a school is at risk of being damaged by your misrepresentation. This is why they replied. This is why I feel the need to call you out on your most recent post. And I have nothing go do with this school, but have been on threads about senior admissions for more than 15 years.

Suspicious intervention from PP...

I'm sorry but even in their own (or your??) statement they give a deadline of 3rd Feb for the award of scholarships.

The whole thing is word play and word salad. Their statement is has conflicting dates, deadlines, and implies that one has time to decide, but must do so sooner if they can, but not later than the 3rd Feb. Pressure and a deadline. It. Is simple.

For one who doesn't normally jump on a MN thread, you seems incredibly empassioned about something that hasn'teffected you, but has effected our family decision making - unless this does effect you?

@WombatChocolate

Look - this has perhaps got a little OTT.

My advise earlier was accept the offer and/or dont / move on. But I also see why people are annoyed and object to being accused of 'damaging a schools' reputation"

I can very much see where the confusion has come from here and the OP an PP are right to ask for advice and ask what this all means.

That statement is very wordy, and perhaps as an 'old hand in admissions', you 'get it'. But 11+ first timers will not be so in-tune with the 'soft pressure' of admissions departments.

I agree the statement was the right thing for them to do, but I don't agree that they were politely correcting a misunderstanding. They were very clearly correcting some dodgy wording.

You quote their "absolute deadline", which is fair enough, but they then do go on and ask for things sooner, perhaps fair enough, but they then state an even earlier deadline than the absolute one, which is nothing short of tricksy Admissions speak.

To me, it is clear that there is a final absolute deadline, but an also an earlier requested one which is FOR THOSE WHO ALREADY KNOW THEIR ANSWER.

I don’t think it is especially ‘tricksy’ talk. Perhaps it requires careful reading like an 11+ comprehension piece.

Yes, they are encouraging people to reply sooner. But they are not insisting or saying a scholarship or offer will be removed. The final deadline is made clear.

This is a school in a competitive area with lots of girls schools. They know lots of their candidates and offer holders might also hold or receive offers from GHS, or Tormead or others. Those who are still waiting to hear from other schools, can wait. But for anyone who already knows they will definitely accept or decline,it is simply is asking people to do it sooner rather than later.

The school will then make further offers if it feels it needs to.

Parents do need to have enough time to decide, but they also need to know that holding onto replies (when they already know what they will be….especially if ‘no’) relates difficulties for other families and the school.

The only thing which is unacceptable is if the final deadline is ahead of the state school offers coming out.

I simply think OP could have asked her question (and seeking clarification is always fine) from the school or on MN, without the incendiary and inaccurate thread title. There is no suggestion at all of an exploding scholarship offer. It could be considered defamatory to claim the school have made such offers.

I posted maybe 6 or 7 years ago on posts about a girls school which DID make exploding offers. You can find those threads if you wish. The practice is poor and created bad publicity for that school, and since then, such practices haven’t really been used. So to suggest exploding offers are being used is potentially damaging….and of course if inaccurate is unfair.

Anyway, enough from me. I think I have made my point clear. Parents need to read these letters carefully. They need to recognise the phrases such as ‘absolute deadline’ and ‘if possible’ and distinguish the difference. These parents will also need to read the terms and conditions of offers, including deadlines for deposits, giving notice and loss of fees or deposits or owing a term of fees in lieu of notice and ensure they understand them.

@AndreaKnowsBest

OP an PP are right to ask for advice and ask what this all means.

Absolutely.

If you have any queries about 's Academic Scholarship Award, please do not hesitate to contact our Registrar Mrs Clare Woodgates.
....
nor have we received any enquiries from parents holding scholarship offers regarding the acceptance deadline.

They were very clearly correcting some dodgy wording.

We'll have to agree to disagree about that. I think this is a great example of quoting out of context:

I would therefore be very grateful to receive your written acceptance of this award by Monday 3rd February 2025 or earlier.

Reading that sentence in isolation, I would have interpreted the date as a deadline.

May I ask you to respond now to this offer ahead of the usual agreed final date for the acceptance of a place if you possibly can. Should you have selected another School for , her place in the St Catherine's community can be passed on to the next most able and deserving candidate on our entrance examination waiting list. I would therefore be very grateful to receive your written acceptance of this award by Monday 3rd February 2025 or earlier.

Reading the sentence within the whole paragraph, I do not interpret the date as a deadline. The hint is in "if you possibly can."

And I think @SurreyClassics's ad hominem attack on @WombatChocolate was OTT. But she's probably going to try to impugn my motives, as well.

Hmmmm, resources have been deployed on this one. I actually couldn't care less, but when an organisation has made an error, its best just to admit it and move on, i think thats what theyve done with their statement ybh.....

.....but to continue to argue the toss over something so blatant? Well all it does is elongate the thread and made the organisation look worse!

Regardless of the before, the paragraph ends with a date, a firm date, the date by which they ask to be notified.l about scholarships.

I'm also sorry, but I've just shown this two friends at work, one is copyeditor, and they very much read that as a deadline too - regardless of the statement before hand - that is how the paragraph concludes, that is how it reads.

You simply cannot ask people to do something ahead of the absolute deadline, if they can, then impose an earlier 'firm' date than the absolute deadline. It's ridiculous!

This is a badly written offer letter - either a mistake or purposefuly designed to apply soft pressure - just admit its far to ambiguous and move on...

Before it rattles some more parents too.

Do St Cats still only offer three or so academic scholarships? This is quite identifying

I’d probably ask for the thread to be deleted if I were you OP

Looks like it's the theme of 2025. Priors Field offering 40-50% scholarships and ones that explode at the end of this week too.

All I can say is be wary of those looking desperate and flouting the rules!

Somewhat vindicated by the Tormead Offer Evening last night!

Met another other set of parents with StCats offers, who said the same thing, pressure to accept by the date given. This other set also knew of others who felt the same.

A member of staff at Tormead who was very gracious and polite, and wouldn't take sides against st Cats, in fact they were suprisingly complimentary of StCats and what the offer, did reassure that under the rules of the group their are members off, there's no need to worry as we all have until the proper deadline.

I read above priors field school are doing the same. The problem is, it smacks of semi desperate, even though I'm sure it's not!

Anyway - I thought I'd share, as it's clearly not just me bamboozled by the StCats communications and deadline(s!).

Yeah, I've heard similar. I think they've just tried to apply some soft pressure this year. I've heard it happening elsewhere too.

Like I said way up the thread, just go with DDs choice and if she's not ready to decide yet, they can wait.

How was the Tormead Offer Day, have StCats held their's yet, you could always ask them about this at their event?

Interesting that the member of staff didn't bad mouth the 'competition'. What was the context? Seems quite classy if they didn't offer comment.

I haven't had any dealing with St Cats but my daughter has an offer (including scholarships) from Prior's Field and we haven't come under any pressure to accept before the deadline. She has really enjoyed the whole process and is currently keen to go there.

I have been alerted to this stream of comment by a friend so have viewed this after some time not engaging with Mumsnet as I dont think anonymous comments fair.

However for what it is worth I looked at St Cats myself a few years ago for my goddaughter and am happy to say she is now very happy and excelling at St Cats. I am not sure what the problem is as surely the code of practice is very clear that no one should feel under any pressure to accept a place before the deadline date and all schools know that very well. If that is your experience I would ask what the response has been from st cats beyond the statement I have seen that they have posted? Have you actually spoken to the Registrar there as my friends experience was very positive with the lady there and she could not have been more helpful or kind with a relocation from overseas. You dont report on any personal convo JJMilford? Both St Cats and Tormead ad GHS are great schools and will do a great job for any DD or God DD in my case but I am somewhat mystified that anyone would think either would be so unprofessional to make any negative comment. Good for Tormead for not being sucked in to some silly school war as beneath them but none of them would do that. I am sure the Heads of GHS, Tormead, Priors Field and St Cats are in regular contact about the best path forward for their students as that is the prime objective.

Anyway that is my thought for what it is worth. But I think all schools in the Guildford area do their best and all have so much to offer. But my GDD is very happy in Bramley and her parents also feel very supported and pleased she is there. I am just sorry to read the thread highlighted to me which seems to be targeted at St Cats when DD is so happy there.

From what I've read it seems the pressure is because the StCats deadline is before the other schools deadlines?

The OP doesn't seem to be saying he's being forced by means of torture, but there's a school statement on the previous page that is quite confusing with dates.

I personally think this is a bit irrelevant, just pick where you want to go!

However, that said, it's clearly confused enough people and I can see where this poster is coming from. The acceptance date should be the same for schools in the same club, in this case the Girls Schools Associations it seems.

@Tennyson1969 , agree all these schools are all great. We are lucky locally. I just think, given that statement (their words, not anyone else's), that the dates for their deadline are somewhat misleading/confusing. This has certainly got a little out of hand, but I can see where this poster (and the others) is coming from. People get quite emotional about the 11+ and to be given an acceptance date for financial assistance, which has to be accepted before the deadline of other schools, could, understandably, be quite stressful.

I think we just need to put this one to bed.

Has op responded to the apparent contradiction regarding being chased for an early decision by StCats by phone which their statement denied?

Where does the OP mention a phone call? I couldn't see that.

They claimed to be badgered and bothered by a pushy Admissions lady. Certainly more contact than an offer letter.

I just read that as hyperbole. Isnt the crux of the issue for these parents the dodgy offer letter thats been done to death?

Are you trying to discredit the OP.

No, just curious at the apparent difference in narrative.

OH goodness what a minefield this is for all. Thank you for responding folk and I agree with the statement that this should be put to bed. I just posted as I felt it was an unkind dialogue for ALL the schools involved as they really have the best interests of all the girls at heart and are professional with this very emotional decision for the way forward. I shall sign out now but know that anyone reading this will get the best education for their DDs at any of the Guildford schools. I can only say St Cat’s is lovely personally but I am know all have so much to offer! Good luck ladies.

Agree with the PP.

I also feel that this is a gentle shot across the bow for StCats, and will discourage this kind of practice in the future.

They're all v good schools and stcats among them should have no need for wordplay in offer letters.

and from me too, FIN.

As a mother, I’ve been really disappointed with St. Catherine’s. The communication from the school had been inconsistent, and I didn’t feel my child’s individual needs were being supported—especially when it comes to learning differences. The environment felt overly strict at times, and there seems to be more focus on discipline and academic pressure than on the well-being of the students. It’s was frustrating to watch my child feel stressed and unsupported in a place that’s supposed to help them grow.
I’m not sure about the scholarships there, but I don’t recommend the school in general.

As a mother I have had the opposite experience to unknown. My daughter is in L4 and since she started in U3 has been incredibly well supported from an accademic and pastoral point of view following illness, and some SEN which has come to light since she started. I couldn't recommend the school highly enough.