Sets in secondary schools

[Blueybingobanditchilli]

Can any secondary teachers answer a quick question for me please:

Once the kids in your school are in sets can they move up or down depending on how they’re doing? Or is it set in stone for a while? Say they did terribly in their Y6 sats and got put in a bottom set but then showed masses of ability - do they get moved up?

I ask because I’m sure we got moved around loads in secondary when I was at school but DH insists that once he was placed in bottom set for maths he had to stay in that class for the whole 5 years of secondary and was forced to sit the intermediate paper. DS is doing sats this year and I don’t think a 10 year old needs this kind of pressure and surely teachers would spot if a kid was in the wrong set?? Just wondering what the norm is in secondary schools these days.

If his test scores at secondary are higher than the rest of the class, then yes they can move up.

Not a teacher and understand schools are different. My DD said they sat tests at the beginning of year 7. She’s now in year 8 and has moved up a set in maths.

Schools do it differently. Apparently they look at them twice a year at DDs school. Its down on grades (test, homework and class work) and effort.

Remember its not as easy as just someone moving up... someone will also have to move down.
Plus your set for one subject can affect what class you are in for another for timetable reasons, so moving can be quite disruptive. (For example... at DDs school they also do MFL in their maths/science set)

pupils can move sets - both up and down.

Movement is normal.
SATS results are used alongside other holistic categories to set, whether people believe so or not for most of the population it is a good barometer of what a child can do.

A child getting 115+ will need to be challenges, a student with under 95 is likely to need significant support. Those in the middle are more likely to move up and down. Nurture groups will likely have a TA attached and will likely have significant support needs or need substantial adjustments and is not necessarily attainment based, generally they move out of Nurture into the wider population as their needs lessen or the move into KS4.

The exception tends to be those who arrive with little English and improve massively as they get older and pick up the language and SEND who may not have been diagnosed or received the support they required at Primary. Or on the other hand those who begin to develop MH issues at Secondary school or get into poor friendship groups don't reach their potential.

In our school certain subjects are paired on the timetable so if you move in Maths at the end of a half term you move in Science. Other lessons are mixed ability rather than streamed. Teachers will also look at the boy/girl mix, personality mix.

For us groups would be sorted to be set as below and then we would go through each group and make sure the boy/girl mix was right, mix of behaviour and personality's, no significant friendship issues or known bullying people in them. Not putting very anxious students with very brash ones, a bright but low confidence student might be purposefully put down a group to gain confidence as the top of a lower ability group.
X1 Top highest achieving 30 of year group
Y1 - Next 30
X2 - mixed but averaging higher attainment
Y2 - mixed
X3 - mixed
Y3 - mixed but averaging lower attainment
X4 - Nurture

I think all schools are different, but in my DC's school there is quite a bit of movement between sets.

Just to add... one of DDs friends joined her in Set 1 (of 4) this year, after starting in bottom set and working up. Now in Yr9.

In our secondary you can move up or down, it's flexible. Don't stress! It'll all work out. 🙏🏼

My DS was moved from set 2 to set 1 for maths at the start of Y9.

Different schools will have different policies (back in the dark ages when I was at school my school had sets so you were at your level for each subject whereas DH was at the neighbouring school and they had streams so top, middle or bottom for everything I have no idea what they did with someone who was good at say English but weaker in Maths).

At the very large school I teach at:

In September, yesr 7 sudents are initially put into a Maths set, and an English set. These are based on their KS2 scores. Science will be the same set as English (year 7 Science has more to do with literacy ability than mathematical ability, in year 7). The Humamities and MFL are also in their English set, but the Arts, PE and Technologies are in their tutor groups.

All year 7 students will have a baseline assessment in English, Science and Maths, at the end of September, and if their scores are widely different to the rest of the class (and matched by our observations), they may move sets in early October.

Then, English, Maths and Science will re-set the students every year (apart from year 10-11.

From year 8 onwards, Science is set separately from English.

Yes they can move up. Although I'm still hoping DS will perform well in SATs because of the behaviour issues which, in our experience at least, is worse in lower sets and then I worry it can become a bit of a trap. My Y9's target grades are still based on SATs (and this is an excellent, high performing school). So for us, SATs weren't something we take lightly, though we try not let DS feel too pressured about it.

Of course they can move up. I don't think they will move up or down more than once a year though. DD got moved up a set halfway through the first term. However, she said at her school it is rare to move a set during the school year (usually happens when going into the next year). She said it only happens usually to one pupil or in this case it happened to two.

I think sometimes for whatever reason the teacher can get it wrong, for example if they mess up on the one exam and get put in a lower set. Or if someone was tutored to get into a higher set but then struggles to keep pace. Although, dd said the girls in the top sets are the ones that have tutors every week to get there and stay there. She is in private school, so may be different then state.

In all the schools around here there are several points each year where the classes are reviewed and children moved. They don't just move one child at a random time, they try to make it less obvious (all the children notice obviously).

Also in at least one school they don't use Y6 Sats to determine sets, they have their own exam when the children start.

Yes echoing others, don’t worry @Blueybingobanditchilli

For my DC and also at my school, there was quite a bit of movement between sets. Certainly someone who was in the wrong set would be moved by the end of the year at the latest.

Also, many secondary schools set only for maths in KS3 anyway. We had a year where we set for MFL as well (and English I think) from KS3 and it worked well, but it’s not common (and my school didn’t usually do it). So mixed-ability classes are often the norm for many subjects. GCSE years are often self-setting for smaller subjects (only keen students take it) tho we used to set in MFL if we could (so if we have enough students). Subjects like English and science will probably be set for KS4.

Schools ar usually flexible and do move pupils up and down. DD was in bottom set for French and the teacher said she could have moved her up but she felt she had been building her confidence in speaking and would keep her where she was. She still got an A.

I'm not a secondary teacher but I have a child at secondary school.

The school she attends doesn't even use SATs results to put people into sets. They are all mixed at first and then sit CATs. The children are tested regularly (every half term) too, to check their ability on a regular basis.

In terms of measuring and tracking progress, schools are really on it, much more than when I was at school.

Not a teacher but have a child in Y11 in a huge school that sets for pretty much all subjects. She is DME - so high ability with severe SEN which makes it tricky.

Most subjects DD hasn't moved sets from one year to the next. Maths she has moved every year and at one point moved 3 times in a year as they were trying to find best fit - they moved too far with first move and then tweaked it back up again to the right level.

English she's moved in Y8 and Y9 and then stayed the same, ditto Sciences.

School very ready to listen to parents and pupils to get things right and will also facilitate a move if there's a bad fit with a particular teacher. They have a lot of sets (around 20 in core subjects so that helps - probably harder in a small school with only a small number of classes).

If your DH was in bottom set and sat the intermediate paper then it must have been either a grammar or a very high achieving school.

When there was an intermediate paper it went higher, intermediate, foundation.

So he sat the middle paper on the gcse.

If he was bottom set and not sitting foundation it must have been a hell of a school!

Ok thanks all. DS school is going a bit hell for leather with sats prep so he’s getting really stressed about it all. At least I can reassure all is not lost if he messes up, which I’m sure he won’t. Obviously I want him to try his hardest but I think the pressure is ridiculous!

oh bloody sets (35 years teaching here)...saw it so often, despite flexible and high expectations setting wherever I could....but sets may teach at a slower pace, and/or teach overly diluted material, making 'movement up' difficult.
Saw this with my own DC...one in top set history wrote a viewpoint of a suffragist fighting for the vote, the other in a lower set drew one !
Hate setting really, most Europeans manage with a lot less setting, fearing it lowers standards overall.

State secondary here, they only move sets at the start of each school year based on test at end of year and assessment. I.e they re-do the sets each year. Don’t change sets in year 11 in case the sets have gone through the content in different order or different depth. Also they try and keep them with the same teacher for KS4.
most state schools around us don’t move people in sets mid year unless their is a behaviour or exceptional other reason.
Lower sets generally have worse behaviour and the lowest sets generally do foundation paper in maths, science, language but they do assess which paper they sit by the individual pupil based on mocks and in term test regardless of sets.

DS’ secondary moves.up and down twice a year. I think they are moving less/ not at all year 11 which makes sense. Before there was a lot of movement.

When i was at school we did tests at the start of year 7. We were set for maths in year 7, english in year 8 and science in year 9. We would be assessed at the end of the autumn, spring and summer term and sets would be adjusted. I was in a high set for maths and english but i was in the bottom set for science. Behaviour was bad in the botom set of science. However it could be just as bad in the top sets of maths and english on a friday afternoon. There was no movement in year 11.

My sons school did assessments at the start of Y7 (maybe 4 weeks in) and then again this last few weeks, so after Xmas. These assessments firstly put them into sets, and then the subsequent ones check they're in the right one and move if necessary. I quite like them having assessments, makes me happier knowing the kids aren't just left to get on with it.