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Secondary education

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11+ test: I think it's unfair and elitist

334 replies

ParentOfOne · 12/01/2025 13:06

We are helping our child prepare for the 11+ test, to apply for some selective and partially selective state schools (we won't be going private).

She is doing quite well, so, from a purely selfish perspective, I should be happy.
However, I can't help but think that the test is elitist and unfair

  • it favours children who are well-rounded, and who are so at 11ish. A child who develops well academically but later, and/or who is stronger in the verbal part than the non-verbal, or viceversa, won't do well
  • state schools do not typically prepare children for these kinds of tests, so the family situation becomes a huge differentiator: if your parents are more educated, and/or take you to the library, and/or can pay for tutoring, you'll have a huge advantage. Libraries have books to prepare for the test, but a teenager can go to the library alone, not a 10-year old.
  • some of the verbal part is honestly too hard for a child of this age. I am not sure it is appropriate to expect that 10-11 year olds know vocabulary such as cantankerous, recalcitrant, cogitations, etc
  • children who speak a Latin language (maybe also Greek? Not sure) have a huge advantage guessing the meaning of the more complex words. French-speaking, Spanish-speaking kids etc are much more likely to guess the meaning of initiate, abound etc even if they are not avid readers

My sense is that the brilliant child of parents who are uneducated, don't speak another language, don't take their children to the library etc stands almost no chance vs a less academic, less brilliant middle to upper middle class child who enjoys all the other advantages mentioned above.

There is of course the separate topic of whether it is even appropriate to separate kids by academic success, but my point is not about that, it is that the 11+ test is a very poor assessment because it doesn't take into account all the other factors.

Thoughts?

OP posts:
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6
Paradisegained · 18/01/2025 12:45

Neveragain35 · 16/01/2025 21:14

Surely we can agree that every child warrants the same standard of education? As a very basic human right?

Surely we can guarantee ever child has the same parental support at home, same income for extra curricula - etc no you absolutely can’t.

You can’t guarantee even in the best school that your child’s teacher doesn’t suddenly get ill and they have disaster daily cover teachers etc

nothing is a guarantee

life is unfair.

some children are young carers, some undiagnosed SEN, some don’t have support at home, some have parents with mental health issues or those that have to work 3 jobs.

Paradisegained · 18/01/2025 12:48

privatenonamegiven · 15/01/2025 20:36

Sadly always the case on threads like this...statements like "Society is elitist and we don't live in a communist country", I just find depressing and borderline ignorant.

Well it is. My daughter (state school, SEN, FSM) has just got 4 places offered at uni (waiting on Cambridge). I have hugely struggled as a single parent.

Society is depressing. It’s not ideal and of course it would be nice to promise every child a super education - but the reality is very different and you have to deal with reality as depressing as it is.

ThisPageIsBlank · 18/01/2025 13:00

CurlewKate · 16/01/2025 14:22

@ThisPageIsBlank "And why should some of the class be held back from doing work which they are academically capable of doing because it would "upset others"?"

Because 11+ preparation is nothing to do with more academically advanced work. It's about being coached to jump through a very specific hoop, and would be a complete waste of time for anyone not going in for the test. And, in fact a waste of time for anyone who doesn't pass.

Non-verbal reasoning is a valuable skill in many different contexts. Why on earth would children be prohibited from learning this at school? It's essential to numerous different careers and useful for many areas of academic study.

thing47 · 18/01/2025 15:16

Rachelthieves · 18/01/2025 12:05

If a school has one child from each of the three ability ranges, by definition it is Comprehensive in the range of academic ability it teaches. Is it not a Comprehensive School then !

I don't believe in all this talk that a Comprehensive school needs to have a equal 33% split across the three ability ranges or anything like that number, just one from each group is enough. If this is not the case Comprehensive schools in deprived non selective areas which have less than 15% high attaining and more than 40% low attaining pupils must be Secondary Moderns.

But in an all-grammar area the supposed brightest 25-30% of DCs, as determined by the 11÷ test, are in the grammar schools. So by definition there aren't any of the top 25-30% in ability in the other schools are there? not one. Therefore they aren't compehensives.

cantkeepawayforever · 18/01/2025 17:06

ThisPageIsBlank · 18/01/2025 13:00

Non-verbal reasoning is a valuable skill in many different contexts. Why on earth would children be prohibited from learning this at school? It's essential to numerous different careers and useful for many areas of academic study.

11+-style non-verbal reasoning? Do you have evidence for that?

As an anecdote, my sibling is Oxbridge-educated in physical science STEM, professionally successful, highly intelligent, but cones out with a NVR score in the ‘significant SEN’ range every time. Always has, from childhood to now, familiarity has never improved it.

cantkeepawayforever · 18/01/2025 17:07

I am genuinely struggling for a career that requires ‘11+ style NVR’ as opposed to ‘domain specific reasoning’ based on training and knowledge?

CecilyP · 18/01/2025 19:03

ThisPageIsBlank · 18/01/2025 13:00

Non-verbal reasoning is a valuable skill in many different contexts. Why on earth would children be prohibited from learning this at school? It's essential to numerous different careers and useful for many areas of academic study.

I can't think of anything it would be essential or even useful for once a child joins Y7, regardless of of what school they attend. For a selective school, a high standard of written English would be the most useful. The only careers that I think NVR would be particularly helpful for are trades such as joinery, plumbing, bricklaying, and wallpapering with an offset match!

I doubt if any private secondaries of public schools use NVR as a major part of their selection process. The beauty of both VR and NVR is they are multiple choice and can be marked by computer so marking is both quick and cheap.

Regardless of the above, both VR and NVR are part of IQ tests and are only really valid if candidates come to them cold!

CurlewKate · 18/01/2025 20:55

@Paradisegained "life is unfair."

Indeed. All the more reason not to add institutional unfairness.....

GoldH · 11/10/2025 19:52

My child got 112 in GL bucks 11 plus eligible for selection review if anyone completed successfully please share. Really need ideas for strong application pls

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