11+ test: I think it's unfair and elitist

[ParentOfOne]

We are helping our child prepare for the 11+ test, to apply for some selective and partially selective state schools (we won't be going private).

She is doing quite well, so, from a purely selfish perspective, I should be happy.
However, I can't help but think that the test is elitist and unfair

• it favours children who are well-rounded, and who are so at 11ish. A child who develops well academically but later, and/or who is stronger in the verbal part than the non-verbal, or viceversa, won't do well
• state schools do not typically prepare children for these kinds of tests, so the family situation becomes a huge differentiator: if your parents are more educated, and/or take you to the library, and/or can pay for tutoring, you'll have a huge advantage. Libraries have books to prepare for the test, but a teenager can go to the library alone, not a 10-year old.
• some of the verbal part is honestly too hard for a child of this age. I am not sure it is appropriate to expect that 10-11 year olds know vocabulary such as cantankerous, recalcitrant, cogitations, etc
• children who speak a Latin language (maybe also Greek? Not sure) have a huge advantage guessing the meaning of the more complex words. French-speaking, Spanish-speaking kids etc are much more likely to guess the meaning of initiate, abound etc even if they are not avid readers

My sense is that the brilliant child of parents who are uneducated, don't speak another language, don't take their children to the library etc stands almost no chance vs a less academic, less brilliant middle to upper middle class child who enjoys all the other advantages mentioned above.

There is of course the separate topic of whether it is even appropriate to separate kids by academic success, but my point is not about that, it is that the 11+ test is a very poor assessment because it doesn't take into account all the other factors.

Thoughts?

Why cant they just use SATs - which everyone does and which the schools prep for - to select for grammar schools? At the end of the day, pupils in grammar schools are going to be taught to sit GCSEs which are far more similar to SATs than an IQ test so the results of those tests should be far more relevant.

The private schools around us set written maths and english papers for their selection process.

It seems mad to create a separate 11+ test - which generates a whole tutoring industry around it - and quite obviously discriminates against those whose families aren't engaged or don't have the funds to pay.

@north51 That's an excellent question!

Those who work in education can confirm / elaborate, but my understanding is that, historically, the 11+ test as we know it now was conceived as an untutorable test, that assesses innate ability and intelligence, regardless of the quality of the teaching a kid may or may not have received at school.

The thinking was, therefore, that children with worse teachers, in a less academic school etc may do less well at an SAT test but should not be penalised at the 11+, precisely because it is untutorable.

I, and many others, view this as utter bullshit, for the reasons already covered.

Thanks for the explanation, I understand now 😅

The reason the above never occurred to me is because, personally, I’ve never believed that the 11+ is fair.

But nothing about the education system is fair (and I would include private schools in this) or, indeed, in most other aspects of life. So… get used to it I guess? It’s not fair, so we all have to do our best within the confines of an unfair and unequal society.

I guess where my views might diverge with others in this thread is I don’t believe shutting down grammar schools, and forcing private schools into financial ruin, has a net benefit to society,

Not everyone does do SATs - only state schools - and grammars are open to all.

And far easier to tutor for SATs than for 11+

All that will happen is that parents will start tutoring in Y4 for the primary curriculum - and that will have a far worse effect on the non-tutored children in the class.

@OhCrumbsWhereNow private schools arrange for the ISEB's to be done on site for those students that are applying to schools that require them. they easily could offer the same (SAT exam) for students wish to apply to grammar schools.

Society is elitist and we don’t live in a communist country.

SATs are elitist. GCSEs and A level and then universities.

I have moved heaven and earth to get my children into outstanding schools.
I have fought tooth and nail for EHCP and resources.

I paid for tutoring where needed and used systems where needed.

Currently DP - English specialist is doing 60 minutes with our SEN DC (who has been given extra time, scribe and laptop for all classwork and exams) with his CGP guide in English.

He will then have a break and then do 60 minutes Maths with me.

He went from 4 years behind to on track for English and ahead in Maths. He isn’t going private but is going to an outstanding state. In September we will carry on tutoring him in English / Maths and whichever else he needs.

And for home ed students?

@OhCrumbsWhereNow really? The same way home ed students occasionally take other qualifying exams. Where I live that’s via the local college; the exam board has certain criteria, the college fulfills the invigilation and secure return of exams. No one is inventing the wheel here.

But that is the case if you are wanting to scrap 11+ (easy to prep for at home) and substitute with SATs that neither private schools nor HE kids will have done.

You are the one suggesting reinventing the wheel.

SATs also don't work well for SEN. My DD has extremely high VR and NVR scores - she's just really, really good at NVR in particular - but would have failed her SATs had she taken them (Covid years).

We didn't sit for grammars as they wouldn't have been a good fit for her, but I suspect she would have scored high enough for a place.

Anyone with a background in psychology will also tell people that these tests are also culturally biased, as well as put those from the middle classes at an advantage. As they are designed by guess what one the whole white middle class men…

@ParentOfOne it’s also interesting that the grammar system was based on flawed research. Google Cyril Burt…

For anyone interested https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/ioe/2024/07/25/intelligence-sapience-and-learning-part-2-dark-science-the-deathly-malpractice-of-francis-galton-and-cyril-burt/

I don’t think that’s entirely true anymore. I would even say that BAME children of first generation immigrants make up the majority of virtually every grammar school intake.

To be clear just because they’re culturally biased doesn’t mean people/ children from different cultural backgrounds can’t access these tests and perform very well with tutoring which is what happens.

Apologies for typos.. but I’m sure people get my points

They're still largely middle class, education driven families.

Same, I wasn’t tutored either. Op if you are so against it, don’t tutor your kid. I’m from a working class immigrant family if that helps OP. Let the chips fall where they will.

It’s a easy for you to say that as it’s obviously worked for you… it’s not great for everyone.

We are Essex based.

I just wanted to add to something here… there are 4 selective (2 boys, 2 girls) who have a strict catchment area and every year, students within this never reach the pass which is, quite honestly, low. This is because the primaries don’t prepare them for very obvious reasons: there’s no prize. SATS are all that matter and an 11+ child would get full marks in their SATS with their eyes closed.

There are several independents whose reputation depends on it: St Michael’s, St Pierre and Alleyn Court to name a few. They still don’t have the best results because private does not equal better education.

Essex schools open up spaces to those who don’t pass to out of catchment, one year this made up 50% of the year group. Some don’t even have a catchment. Many move. The schools are great. Tutoring is worth it purely for the better behaviour within the schools and there are fantastic opportunities: the grammars have far bigger budgets because they have a lot of donors and alumni who leave money in their wills.

I mean the 'bame' children are from such families.

I just wanted to add to something here… there are 4 selective (2 boys, 2 girls) who have a strict catchment area and every year, students within this never reach the pass which is, quite honestly, low. This is because the primaries don’t prepare them for very obvious reasons: there’s no prize. SATS are all that matter and an 11+ child would get full marks in their SATS with their eyes closed.

You must mean the Southend grammars @Anothermathstutor. It’s true the pass mark is rather low. My DD unfortunately stuffed up the VR paper a few years back but still got above the pass mark. Sadly, we were out of catchment.

I suppose I just don’t see it as the primaries’ job to prep children for the 11+. The issue is why aren’t more in-catchment families grasping this golden opportunity to get their children over the pass mark?

Considering the location of the remaining grammar schools I find that highly unlikely. Have you ever been to Lincs? Or NI?

https://comprehensivefuture.org.uk/interactive-map-of-grammar-schools/ The vast majority of remaining grammar schools in England aren’t in Lincolnshire, as the comprehensivefuture map shows.

No.

OK, perhaps too wide a generalisation. I’m pretty certain it’s the case in the SE / Home Counties

SATS are all that matter and an 11+ child would get full marks in their SATS with their eyes closed.

This is not, objectively, true. Full marks in all aspects of SATs is relatively rare, and having worked in schools in a partially-selective county with only superselective grammars, it is neither true that those who pass the 11+ for those schools get full marks in SATs, nor that they are the highest performers in SATs.

A typical superselective 11+ passer - ime, with access to both sets of results - typically scores highly in the Arithmetic section of Maths SATs and in SPaG, the ‘closed question’ sections of SATs. Some also do well, though extremely rarely with full marks, in Reading and - less rarely -Maths Reasoning. Ime, partly because of an imbalance in ethnic background of those training gard for the 11+, they are typically high Expected, rather than Greater Depth, in English Writing.

The very few children who I have taught who have full narks and are GD in Writing have actually gone on to good comprehensives, at least one despite passing the 11+ for the most selective grammar.

The BAME children in grammar schools still come largely from middle class, professional education focussed families. And immigrant families are frequently, by definition, aspirational. The presence of BAME children does not indicate diversity in anything but race.