Moving for 6th form

[YesYesKitten]

How long is a piece of string but do state school sixth forms tend to fill their c.25 places for external pupils?

DD really liked a 6th form 6 miles away but distance rules apply - thanks @FamilyEdition for making sure I read the admission rules properly.

So would have been very unlikely in Y7 but they were VERY encouraging of external applicants at the open evening.

It's an aspirational school, very impressive destinations list, but not one you would have heard of if you're not local.

If you have private schools nearby then yes - particularly this year with the introduction of VAT. A far higher number of DCs friends are looking to move to state from private for sixth form than ever before. Just because parents can’t afford the extra money.

@YesYesKitten , it depends on how popular they are and how popular the alternatives are, so yes, how long is a piece of string?

If you name the school, some people may know it and be able to give more specific info.

There will probably be more than 25 places - that is just a minimum. They don't yet know how many of their own year 11 students will want to stay on or meet the criteria to stay on. There is no coordination of sixth form admissions, so they can't be certain how many of their applicants will enroll until the enrollment day in August.

It also depends on which courses your child is applying to. Some subjects fill up more quickly than others. Popular subjects may fill up quickly from a close distance, but sixth forms often struggle to fill places in certain subjects, e.g. music, MFL., so the "last distance offered" can be much greater for those.

My GS has moved to a new school for A levels. He and his mum attended the open evenings of 3 schools and spoke to the tutors of the subjects he wanted to do and they were very honest about his chances of getting in. The one he really liked was oversubscribed in his 'iffy' subject but they steered him in another direction and he was offered a place dependent on GCSEs. He's been very happy there and has matured in the new surroundings. His original school wanted him to stay but admitted, under some pressure, that they could withdraw a course if it was undersubscribed or enough students dropped out during the year. Something to consider. Good luck.

Thanks @FamilyEdition the school is in Hertfordshire and interestingly I recall their Google form didn't even ask for parent contact details. So, I'm trying to be hands off. They will be in touch in January so not too long to wait.

Her subjects are STEAM so more popular nowadays. I've heard that they are strict about the grades required if their own students want to stay on. I hadn't thought that the 25 might be a minimum.

I think this will vary wildly by local situations. We have excellent but massive sixth form colleges near us, so even the most academic schools empty out a bit.

We have found students could all just pick their setting in practice. They can hold multiple offers and only need to commit after they get their results.

In our area one of the sixth forms is part of an academy trust. Priority is always given to academy trust pupils from 4 schools in the trust. Academy trust pupils secure their places on results day, outside pupils a couple of days later, there may still be places available but not always on the courses they want.

That's interesting @Laserwho , the two external sixth forms DD is interested in are not Academy chains so that's not a factor for us fortunately

I was also about to say that it's odd that a state sixth form would specify an exact quota of external candidates - more likely to be the number they approximately take in every year.

My DC's sixth form takes pretty much everyone who applies. Although they do not guarantee your choice of subjects (but they don't for internal candidates either).

It's not odd - it's what they're meant to do. The Year 12 published admission number (PAN) is only for external admissions. Their own year 11 students who meet the academic criteria are entitled to transfer automatically. So all they can really do is publish a minimum for externals.

Interesting - I've never seen a Year 12 PAN locally (and I've had 2 children look at different sixth forms). Didn't know it was a thing!

You sometimes have to hunt around to find sixth form admissions policies on school websites. Sometimes its a section at the end of the year 7 policy, sometimes separate. But it sounds like your school sixth form isn't oversubscribed, so you've never had a reason to look for it.

Be warned, if you get a “conditonal offer” for y12, it is NOT a guarantee of a place in any way. The school will have a priority criteria list (on their website) but they are not obligate to convert this to a place if the grades are achieved (unlike uni where they are.) I had a relatives child who had set his heart on a 6th form transfer, he got the offer, went to induction day, they were SUPER enthusiastic, got the grades, and then told on trying to enrol they had offered many more places than they had, and he had to stay at his current school. It was extremely frustrating for him.

We also had a nerve wracking day on gcse results day to see if ds got into a new school sixth form. He got the grades but they were over subscribed for one of his subjects. We heard by 5 pm that day that he had a place but it took the shine off the day totally.

Same here. The selective state school here also has a sixth form double the size of their lower years so plenty of high achieving students from other schools move there for sixth form. It's a bit of a brain drain for other schools tbh.

That is frustrating for him, but yes it's more like school than university applications in a lot of ways. The further away you are, and the more applications there are from linked schools/"catchment" above you in the list, the lower your chances. However there's also quite a lot of elasticity in the system and more places than students overall. Students are allowed to hold multiple conditional offers until results day, so it follows to me that all the colleges that offer to them can't necessarily all guarantee them that place. They'd need 2-3 times their capacity to do that. However students should all be guaranteed a place locally either at their school or (if their school stops at 16) at a linked college.

Blimey, I did not realise this @YouDontNeedWarpaint @mumonthehill

So would a setting with PAN 30 make c.90 conditional offers?

Most schools in my area would give a conditional offer to all that apply, but then use their oversubscription criteria on results/registration day. For example, they might give out appointment times in order of distance (if that was the main criterion) then close the door on later appointments when all places are filled. Also, if your child has applied for popular subjects that fill before their appointment time, they might have to select a different course to what they wanted. So read the small print of the admissions policy and all letters carefully, and make sure you have back-up plans.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge @FamilyEdition . Gosh, I didn't realise how fraught results day might be.

Do conditional offers tend to just be their main criterion e.g. 8 if you want to take Further Maths, or would they say ask for 9s?

In our area I think people tend to stay at school but we'll see what happens.

I was wondering if you work in this field or whether you are a much more clued up parent than me - no worries if you'd rather not say.

The conditional offers should be for the minimum academic criteria in the policy.

I'm a school governor, but I also have two DCs who have been through the application process in my area.

In my experience as a parent the schools have certain thresholds for each subject, e.g. if you want to study Chemistry you need a 7 in Chemistry etc. Getting a 9 will not put you at the front of the Chemistry queue. They then also apply any entrance criteria so often this is a threshold amount- e.g. score over 6 in at least 8 GCSEs then all those scoring over 6 are ranked by distance. One school I know ranks pupils by grade average, highest ranked get offers first. Distance is only used as a tie break.

The schools all do things differently so you need to be familiar with the entry requirements for that school. As others have said though you can apply to multiple sixth forms and your place will only be confirmed on or after results day. My dc had to ring up to give results then wait to have offers confirmed. Even after results day you usually have a day or two to accept. This means there might be a cascade of offers after results day.

For example Toby might apply to four schools/ sixth forms A, B, C and D. School A Toby doesn't make the grade requirements so is rejected. Sixth form college B Toby makes the grade and he is offered a place on results day. School C Toby meets the threshold but on results day there are other people living closer so doesn't get an offer on results day. School D ranks the applicants and offers to the top 150 scorers. Toby is ranked 152 (although probably is not actually told the rank). On results day Amelia is offered school A, C and D. Amelia prefers school A so releases the places at school C and D. Toby is next nearest to school C so he is given a place at school C, he has to decide between B and C. He decides to stick with sixth form college B so rejects the place at school C. The place at school C is then offered to Sam. Sam is already holding offers at school A and D but actually really wanted to go to school C so he then rejects the places at A and D and accepts school C. Finally Toby is offered the place at school D because Amelia and Sam have rejected their places and he is next highest ranked so he now decides to reject his place at sixth form college B and accepts school D.

Imagine that multiplied over many students and throw in some teenage angst in which Toby has a crisis of whether to accept or reject School C, rejects it but then is unsure whether that was the right choice because his girlfriend is going to school D and school D is nearer to sixth form college B but then school C offers economics whereas sixth form B only offers Business Studies. Toby is finally happy when offered school D because they offer economics, it is close to home and his girlfriend is going there (even though they will then split up just before Christmas). It can be a few days or even a week before it is really clear which school/ college they are going to and even once term starts there will probably be some who change their minds and go back to their original school.

The system is as chaotic as a teenage mind is at that stage yet somehow the head of sixth forms and the admin teams smile on through it all. It probably helps that lots of students will opt to stay on at their original school or maybe choose to go to the sixth form college so there is some flexibility in the system.

Essentially don't book a holiday without phone signal, stock up on wine, hair dye and wrinkle cream. Perfect the nodding, listening and the phrase 'It is really up to you, but I am sure wherever you are it will be what you make of the experience' and see it as a dry run for uni applications, clearing and not knowing where in the country your precious child will be a month after A level results day.

So did your young people with a few conditional offers go to all the summer induction days for each school?

I think they are 2 days long at each setting!

And does it sound right that a school would make conditional offers to 3x the number of students than places? Thinking of one aspirational setting where I imagine most students will make the grade (so distance will decide).

Yes, mine did, but they weren't 2 days - just half a day. The most popular and over-subscribed of the schools had a first-come-first-served booking system for the induction session because there is no way they would have been able to accommodate all offer-holders.

If you think about it, school sixth forms have no grounds for not giving conditional offers to all applicants, because they can't objectively predict results. They can use predicted grades to help them estimate the likelihood of an individual application meeting the criteria, and they can use meetings to try and guage whether individual applicants are fully committed to the courses they've applied for, but until results day there is no certainty.

Oh actually they've said 2 dates for inductions but maybe they are only required to attend half a day.

This is over a decade ago now but I did 3 sixth form induction-type things I remember! And that didn't even include the school that I was at, that I could have stayed at. Had my pick of the schools after results day.