School comparison data

[SpicyTomatos]

I've downloaded all the comparison data for all schools, so I've now got hundreds of metrics that I could use to compare schools. I think I need to trim this down to a handful.

Which metrics do people think are important and why?

I feel like "% of pupils achieving the English Baccalaureate with 9-5 passes" sounds like a decent one, but then there is the percentage of kids who actually enter the English Baccalaureate, and if this is low, then clearly the overall percentage will be low. Plus this can be measured based on whether the children are disadvantaged or not, so I'm wondered whether I should pick the one that applies to mine.

I appreciate I'm overthinking this, but I was hoping for some thoughts from other overthinkers.

What question are you trying to answer?

I don’t personally think the ebacc is a particularly valid measure; if a school forced it on students then IME lots will do badly at (usually) MFL. If it’s not mandatory (my preference) then yes, the figure may be low. But that doesn’t mean it’s a poor school.

P8, figures for Eng and maths is where I would prefer to look. But all the data in the world will not tell you where might suit your dc, assuming you do have a realistic choice.

Which is the best school for my kids and whether there is much difference between the schools. I appreciate there are many factors and people have different opinions. I'm keen to hear them.

Yes, I think I agree with the point on languages. They provide the data for the constituent parts, but I don't think there is an ebac without languages result.

I'm not convinced that English and maths is wide enough though so perhaps I need to look at the results across several key subjects e.g. English, maths, humanities and sciences.

I need to look into the Progress 8 score. I think I read they were stopping it though.

And yes, there are other factors involved in school selection.

It depends what your focus is. Different schools suit different children - data can not help you with that.

Ebacc is a good example - Some schools will constrain GCSE options to ensure all students take Ebacc choices, thus ensuring a high level of students entered. But that is not necessarily in the best interests of the student. Ebacc includes more traditionally academic choices such as humanities or languages. But for students who are less academic, or prefer the arts, Ebacc doesn't work.

Progress 8 is considered to be a good measure of how successful a school is. But the data is skewed in favour of high achieving students and so schools with higher academic intake, statistically, get higher progress 8 scores.

I would say look at what your child is like - do they need additional support? are they academic or do they prefer arts / practical subjects? what curriculum does the school offer?

What is the profile of the school - in terms of free school meals / english as an additional language / ethnicity / send? Will your child stand out or fit in? Does this matter to you?

If you are a data oriented person, you need to delve deeper that the surface. If your child in a high achiever, how do the high achieving children at the school do? what are the attendance levels like for high achieving children? What are the grades like for the subjects they are interested in? (With a disclaimer that subject specific info is only as good as the current staff and this can change a lot between yr7 and yr11!)

The only way to understand a school really is to go and see and talk with the staff.

Great post from @handmademitlove

Yes there will not be an ebacc figure without the MFL element as it wouldn't be the ebacc! I do think even without considering MFL it is flawed as a measure. If you are particularly keen that your DC takes MFL and there is a decent take-up, you could ask that separately.

I would be asking the following questions:

• Does the school have a generally strong track record of results?
• Does the school seem to have a culture of encouraging pupils to pursue their interests (and enable them to do this through extracurricular activities)
• Do the school's vision and values align with those of our family?
• Does the school have sound behaviour-management policies?
• Is there good provision for SEN (if relevant)?

Do can do all the data analysis in the world but it won't predict your child's grades and it won't tell you if their experience of school will be a happy one.

Attainment 8 is the measure of how well as school has done.

Progress 8 measures how well children have maintained or exceeded the standard they started the school with, so is more neutral of intake - so for me that the's most important one

Thanks for your thoughts. I've ditched the Ebacc and think the Progress 8 score is trying to do too much, so I need to look at the detail as you say.

You inspired me to look at the result below which produced some really surprising results i.e. the schools generally considered to have bad results actually did much better than the ones considered to have good results. That said, it's a small sample, so I might to need to look over a few years.

% pupils in high prior attainment band who achieved strong 9-5 passes in English and maths

Otherwise, I think I will put out the various scores by subjects to compare those. I don't seem to have attendance, but that might not be published yet for 2023/4 or I might have missed it somehow.

Whilst I plan to go to all the open days, I'm not convinced that they are the complete answer. It was many years ago, but my school had terrible results in English; however, I'm sure the whole department would have been really charming in showing parents and students around the classrooms. That said, your point on staff changes is also very true.

Progress 8 is important I think. But so is visiting the school, meeting the pupils and talking to parents with pupils at the school too.

In terms of data progress 8 is probably the best metric of overall development of pupils, whether high or low performing at a base level. All profess is positive and the greater the p8 score the better overall the school is faring for all children.

Other questions about ethos etc can only really be answered properly on open days, or talking to kids and parents with experience of the school.

I just wanted to reiterate that I do plan to look at more than the data, but this thread was about trying to understand the data bit of the process. People frequently make comments like "X school has great results" - I'd just like to fact check that a bit.

Most importnat
Is it local? Can they get there alone? Will they be living near their friends?

P8 is cohort dependent
The demographics of certain cohorts produce higher p8 than others

If it is a state school the government website makes it easy to compare. If indie or private the Telegraph. For some reason a lot of the private schools don't have full results on the govt one but you can see them on their websites if in doubt. I'd look for a school that clearly shows what pupils get (full range of subjects and how many got A/B etc for each). Anything unclear and I'd assume they are hiding poor subjects and failures.

*sorry Times not Tele

Study after study has.indicated that the biggest in-school factor behind academic success is the quality of the teachers/teaching. So I would be looking hard at the HT and the SLT - do they support and ebheir good staff

Sorry posted too soon! Do they support and encourage the good teachers, and do they take.steps to help the weaker ones improve or even move them on where necessary.

@SpicyTomatos the point of open days is not so much to listen to what the teachers say 🙂but it is a chance to talk to students, to see what the wall displays look like, to watch how the staff interact with students.

It is the "soft" stuff. In most schools, open days will be a performance. For some schools, students are told what to say - and what not to say. But there are questions to ask that give a better reality. Ask what students would change about the school. Ask how many cover teachers they have. Ask how many subjects have had the same teacher for the whole gsce course. Ask about the after school clubs - are they by invitation or can anyone go? Ask if any teachers have their own children at the school! Ask what reward / discipline system they use.

I also recommend looking on the school website and reading through the letters sent home - they are usually readily available and give a good flavour of the current issues!

Lots of post how top schools get top grades because the additional use of tutors is rife. Are children forced to leave prior to exam time.
Equally I worry if top schools produce top grades at the expense of a child’s mental health.
Overall as a parent I wanted my children to have a healthy happy childhood and a love of lifelong learning.
So distance, friendship (cohort), and kindness were my priority. Sport and art opportunity as well unless you do those outside the school.
I prefer small intimate vs large schools. I also like a tidy clean environment. And barbed wire fencing an absolute no go.
Mostly stuff no in reports.

Number of GCSEs, we found some private girls schools doing only 9 and only top sets for triple science. Other schools, all try triple science unless struggling massively with Maths and English. Also, some schools high As or 9s from MFL, which happens to be spoken at home. So high German grades and all kids have a German or Swiss German parent.

I'd just look at progess 8 and attainment 8

Then look at it for your type of pupil. The pupil characteristics tab (so if they had high prior attainment, have sen, are pp).

I think ebacc is a non-measure.

I would also caution that the school could be very different by the time your child sit their exams.

This, plus

How many of your 'wish list' of schools would be likely to rank your DC high enough against its oversubscription criteria for a place to be offered? By naming schools on your CAF, you are making individual applications to each one, in an order which tells your home LA I'd most like a places at this one; if I can't have that one, I'd like this one instead... and so on down your list. But if your ranked preferences don't include at least one school which is as near as darn it guaranteed to offer, you'll still end up with the nearest school which didn't fill all its places with people who actually wanted their DC to go there, just like the parent who used no carefully pored-over spreadsheets at all in their application strategy.

My focuse before dc attended secondary and now has changed. For me:-

Can they travel there and back independently easily?

What extra curricular stuff is there? Productions and music shows etc.

How did I feel when I viewed the school - did they have a good library / student artwork up on the walls / well used musical instruments in the classrooms / happy looking teachers? What do the art studios look like?

% of students achieving old money a-c in English and maths.

Do they rigidly protect single sex spaces for students such as changing/bathrooms?

There isn't many of the above I even considered before I started visiting schools, and these things became more important as we viewed and dc1 started at their given school.

Focus
Not focuse obvs