CAT4s as predictors of grammar entry?

[LimeSqueezer]

I've seen various suggestions of how CAT4s may predict which independent schools might be suitable / child might have a good chance, but none for grammars. Anyone know what sort of CAT4s are needed to stand a good chance for the London area super selectives?

I’m not sure CATs will give you much guidance but would imagine any child getting through would have a score no lower than 125.

Indies may use these scores to give an idea but it’s so much more nuanced than the 11+

My son has a CAT of 141 and got through to a super selective grammer (but wasn’t many points over threshold). He didn’t have tutoring and I suspect that those ahead of him score wise were bright but also highly tutored.

Now he’s there he is top of his cohort but we knew that the 11+ is a blunt instrument and it can go either way on the day even if you are very bright and have a very high CAT score.

Thanks, really helpful! I'm really curious to hear more experiences with/without tutoring. I know a child with CAT4s in low 130s who prepped a bit but wasn't tutored and got incredibly low scores on a super-selective grammar 11+ - something Iike 90 SAS on the VR and NVR, resulting in a ranking in the bottom fifth of candidates. It got me wondering about options for my DC in future!

The thing you might find useful is Atom Learning, which will tell you where your child is compared to their cohort and has data on the Atom scores of kids who got into particular schools.

Mine were high 130s and I did increasing prep for each child. All passed 11+ but dc3 got the highest scores overall, which correlated to the increased prep - a few months on Atom. For dc1 we got a couple of workbooks from WHSmith: he passed but not terrifically (but at Oxford now so clearly not lacking academically)

I don't know how anyone can do well in those exams without a bit of tutoring, to be honest. It's not the raw ability to spot a word that sits between armada and leech, or add 2648 and 634. It's the framing of the questions, the timekeeping, simple things like how to approach the online dynamic tests and how exam technique for that differs from exam technique for written papers. How to bother about spelling sometimes and not at other times. How to read the question carefully.

I found my 11+ in a filing cupboard at mum's house recently. I did really well. The papers looked easy frankly. My current 10 year old prep is as different from the vague practice I did as GCSEs are to A levels.I think it's a whole crazy world now especially in London.

We just got our CAT and it was 129. She is working very very hard. Even with this I'm honestly not sure if she will get in anywhere.

I get confused when people say they did the grammar tests without tutoring, unless you are in one of the grammar school counties. Dd1's super-selective had tests at the start of Y6 but it covered the entire Y6 syllabus. She literally wouldn't have understood half of the content in Maths at least, without some tutoring.

I guess this might be different if you're going from a private school but from a standard state school, you would need some assistance to cover the material.

Exactly @Stowickthevast . same at private They broadly covered the y6 and y5 syllabus last year but this whole term has been revising and focusing on what they can't do and improving. Unless other 11+ for grammars out of London is much easier than ISEB /Consortium etc, I don't know how the kids know what to do.

and the stress on exam day, the effect of the testing environment, is rarely mentioned. i have two very bright boys who absolutely crumble at "exam" time.
timed testing in a large strange hall would not be suitable for them.

In Kent the vast majority are tutored mainly on exam technique because the test is fast paced and you’re putting little marks in the right boxes, if you misalign then your whole test is wrong. It also includes a lot of the yr6 maths curriculum so you’ll need to be on top of that. But as pp have said, you can be brilliant at English, maths, reasoning and working at greater depth across the board but the build up and pressure on the day is something else, even the brightest can crumble. That’s what you need to prepare for. But I’d say if CAT scores are around 130 mark then you’ve got a solid starting point (in Kent at least).

CAT works to see if grammar school might be suitable in terms of the child's ability but reasoning is very different from Maths/English grammar tests which require heavy prep. DD had a CAT score of 140 but did not have any tutoring and did not pass the first round of Tiffin Girls. So clearly having a high CAT score is not enough. You'd still need to prepare heavily to make the cut at the super selective grammars.

I'd say that sub say 115 cat averages would likely make a super selective grammar a non starter regardless of prep, unless we were talking absolutely relentless preparation (eg v expensive private primary topped up with a fair bit of tuition). but even really high cat scores would provide no guarantee at all of entry without prep.

CAT4 does nothing with regards to essay writing or reading comprehension or two/three step maths questions. It's an abstract way of getting a rough idea of raw intelligence.

You need to be tutored to practice those things above, if you're not extremely gifted. Even then I think it would be hard to do well without some exposure.

Those with the highest innate intelligence will pick these skills up more quickly than those at a lower lever. In the end, a lot of intelligence is being able to absorb and understand material quickly and then churn it out as required on asking.

People with lower level intelligence will need more time to understand and more repetition/exposure to ensure it's fully gone in and that they execute effectively.

Then, there is the ability to make connections without being exposed to something on the basis of what you've already learnt. Again highly gifted will do better at this than those lower down.

Even this, you can get a bit better at, with practice. Like all things with humans, the more you practice, the better you get at something but some things are just innate.