QEB v Wilson's - which is the leading/best school

[StrugglingPa]

Hi everyone,

I find myself in a bit of a good dilemma! My DS has scored well in both the 11+ exams for QE and SET/Wilson. While QE was my natural choice, I've recently discovered more about Wilson, and now I’m quite confused about which would be the best fit for him.

Here’s a quick breakdown of what I see as the pros:
QE:

• Has a strong academic reputation and has been consistently at the top for years.
• Offers some opportunities in sports and music, though it seems to be more academically focused.

Wilson:

• They have a rigorous selection process, possibly ensuring a higher standard of entry.
• Appears to offer more in terms of sports and music, which might be a good fit for my DS too.

Speaking of my DS, he’s academically aligned, does well in music and computing, and is an avid reader.

I’m feeling a bit biased towards Wilson, but I’m also hearing good things about QE's international expansion, which could be beneficial for their brand. Plus, I’m open to relocating for either school, so that’s not a deciding factor.

I’d love to hear your thoughts! If you have any experiences with either school or general advice, please share. I need to make a decision in a week, so any feedback would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks so much!

Because cause it shows the gap between expectations and reality, which is as a fact very unpredictable. Many jobs that will not even exist anymore when Y7 will be at a Univ level, and new will be created.

Instead of choosing a school based on the child's personality and interests, parents rely on rankings, as if a school ranked 5th offers less chance of a good exam result than one ranked 1st. It’s the students and youth who make the school. Not the other way. For me, the absurdity also lies in the fact that, in many grammar schools, the teaching and teachers don’t necessarily represent the high level that these children deserve, and the school rides on its reputation because, thanks to the number of applicants , it stays at the top of the rankings.

Why does that happen? Surely if you get into Oxbridge or IVY league colleges, you will also get the grammar school students in that mix. Plus the numerical strength of grammar students will be more than private school students

That’s a systematic issue, get the best and then claim top results. I feel competitive schools or events or any competition only helps open the doors that might otherwise be closed

Congratulations to your son OP, he must be very bright indeed to have offers from both those schools. I'm not terribly familiar with either beyond they are both great, so I'd say just go with the one that you and your son like more (and also which part of London you'd prefer to live in!).

Judging from your post I'd guess you're an immigrant to the UK (I'm not saying this as a negative - I am, too!). In many other countries it's normal for parents to do everything possible to get their children the best possible education, it's totally accepted and understood. Given the complex class history in the UK, attitudes to education vary widely, and there are certain people who don't understand why parents would do something like relocate just for an educational opportunity (and many of these people are on Mumsnet).

They also resent anyone trying to get their child a "better" opportunity, and will inundate you with stories about how private school teachers aren't qualified, grammar schools aren't better, just stuffed with top test-takers, etc. "Just go to your local state school, they'll be fine, I went to state school and turned out fine." Probably true! But that doesn't make it the best choice for someone else.

Good luck - there's lots of good advice on here but don't let the anonymous internet naysayers get you down

You can't be serious about numerical strength? 😁

One doesn't have to be numerical to manage people (~corporate leadership).

Honestly, entry into the corporate world might be based in part on academic results but success thereafter is based on a whole raft of other things - hard work, mentoring, self confidence, interpersonal skills, opportunity and sheer luck. A string of grade 9s is a very very small part of it. And if you do have a string of grade 9s it doesn’t really matter where they were from

Barnet is safe OP, boys go together on public transport and I wouldn't be driving there in rush hour.

It always makes me laugh tbh because in the real world I feel like it's quite a common thing that the most academic are rarely the rich/successful ones.

When applying for a job nobody looks at the secondary school you completed.

Competitions- some universities do consider it, it can open the door ... but some like Oxbridge look only at grades.
What opens the door are useful skills, relevant experience: through courses ( programming etc) interships and volunteering.
24 years ago in California, I worked all summer for free for American Express. This intership helped me to secure a first job.

It's disappointing that you've reduced this conversation to simple envy issues, missing much of the nuance. The choice discussed here is between two top schools, and people were advising the original poster to consider factors beyond minor differences in grades or performance, like social fit, commute, and other practical aspects. While the discussion did stray a bit, these points remain valid: grammar schools generally follow the same curriculum and hold similar expectations. Yet, parents often overlook these crucial factors, instead fixating on GCSE or A-level results when making decisions between school A and B

Arkley or Hadley are nicer areas, avoid Dollis Valley.

Renting around (20m max driving) Wilsons is much cheaper than QE
Both schools have around 90+% children of South Asian descent. Not all will become CEOs as those roles require a lot more than academics, a good degree is more than sufficient for academics.
Wilson has more football focus thanks to its larger grounds

haha, no, I mean if someone on here was asking about, say, whether it'd be worth subjecting their kids to a long commute so that they could go to a super selective grammar rather than their local comp, or even whether it's worth moving the family to make attending the grammar doable, that'd be a perfectly sensible question which might I suppose attract a range of opinions. each option would have very distinct pros and cons.

but asking about a family move driven by an attempt to work out which is 'better' out of two essentially identical institutions, that's getting into far less sensible territory. I'd almost call it nonsensical.

i think what OP is looking for is some kind of prestige ranking within super selective grammars that's somehow comparable to, say, the way that Oxford and Cambridge are 'ahead' of the other universities, which they objectively are in at least some ways... more difficult courses, more small numbers teaching sessions, better employment and postgraduate funding opportunities... but there is no such tier list within the top dozen or so super selective grammars, nothing like it at all.

Secondary schools are not universities. Attending one with higher-ranking grammar schools means little in terms of better future opportunities. However, some schools try to portray themselves as elite institutions and choose to be the most selective to ensure higher rankings. Certain parents and families drink the magic potion, believing it will guarantee their child's success regardless of suitability. It is a self-perpetuating myth.

So which school do you choose in the end? I curious to know. Thanks

It doesn't even work like that with universities. Maybe in some fields like ...law etc it matters. I have spent last 30 years in Fortune 100 corporations. Only few people I have meet were Oxbridge graduates in those corporations. And I am talking about people employed on the business side as well as R&D scientists. The employers don't look at university as much as courses completed, skills, attitude, past experience etc

But otherwise you are very much spot on.

Both schools have around 90+% children of South Asian descent.

Exactly. And those kids tend to stick in their ethnic groups with few representatives of other backgrounds pretty isolated.

For top private they try to maintain diversity apart from academic skills. But grammar schools are not.

We were in the exact same position as you (knew we had scored highly enough for QE and had hoped we had for stage 2 for Wilson's). Interestingly, we had the complete opposite reaction to the QE expansion plan to yours- we felt that it would distract the SLT (even if the process is being outsourced, the senior leadership team would inevitably have to have some level of involvement, which would detract from time focussed on the school). We felt it would be akin to the teething problems some schools have when joining a MAT and a head steps up to be exec head; it may work longer term but may cause turmoil in the early years. We were also concerned that they would run into problems with this plan as St Olave's did. It will be interesting to see what happens longer term, but didn't feel we wanted our child to be part of that experiment. We liked the school otherwise.

We really like the SLT at Wilson's and the fact that the head still takes classes and has his finger on what is happening at that level was a big plus.

@StrugglingPa Just checking which option you chose and how is it going?

Computer science is not necessary at A-Level & as a subject is really just applied Mathematics, Further Mathematics as a course could be just as good as Comp Sci for A-Level for anyone hoping to do STEM degree.

I read about A level cull at QEB here
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/optout-school-getting-rid-of-troublesome-boys-1535587.html but is there a cull as well in Wilson's (or other Sutton grammars) ?

We choose QE, Wilson was close to my heart but in the end did a good job following the head. QE is brilliant due to its vision, its deep pockets supported by the friends of the qe and above all has a higher success percentage for leading uni's. It's only second to a private school in the entire country.

This doesn't mean that Wilson is a poor second grammar option. If does though slide down the rankings significantly when bunched up with results from private.
If there was a family that was not biased towards qe or Wilson, due to location, travel to work, or any other reason, shut your eyes and go for QE is what I would recommend

Yes, this is the big problem with leading grammars, form composition is skewed in favour of South Asian descent.

@StrugglingPa Do you know if there's any "culling" for A Levels at Wilson's?
I found the head's talk really inspiring in the open day, but there's also negative reviews alleging "toxic masculinity" here https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/5019377-wallington-county-grammar-school?reply=133509514&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

I am unaware of culling due to toxic masculinity at Wilson’s. Culling does happen due to various issues for a small number of students. I too found the Wilson’s heads talk v impressive