Are target grades limiting?

[Liesmorelies]

I'm a bit put out following ds2's parents' evening appointment (Y10) and wondered what others think.

As a Y10 student ds's targets obviously aren't based on SATs and I'm not entirely sure what they are based on - he didn't do CATs or anything like that. His targets are maths: 9 (used to be 6 and has been raised throughout his time at the school, it's the only one that's ever changed); German, English, RE and history all 7s, and sciences (he does triple) all 6s.

His favourite subjects are maths, biology, chemistry and history, and those are what he wants to take for A level, with a view to probably dropping history at some point. In Y10 (and previously) he would get 7s and 8s for chemistry and assessments but in biology seemed to be stuck on a 6 once Y10 started. In physics he developed a very odd pattern of alternating between a 6 and a 9! At parents' evening (just before the end of year mocks) his chemistry teacher said she was confident he'd get an 8 in the mock and the biology teacher gave helpful advice for how to go beyond a 6.

In the mocks he got 7 in biology (2 marks off an 8) and 6s in physics and chemistry. He was devastated about chemistry (initially, obviously we got it in perspective) as it was so much lower than he had previously been achieving. He had been working at an 8 throughout the year in maths and got a high 8 in the mock, which was when they put his target up to a 9.

So far this autumn he has got 7 in biology, 5 in physics, 8 in maths and no assessment has been done in chemistry. However, on the report biology was reported as a 6.

At parents' evening last week his chemistry teacher (same one from last year) just seemed so uninterested in ds's progress. She began by saying she had nothing to say really and then said he behaves well and works hard and she is happy he is consistently on his target and she's sure he'll get that! Less than 6 months ago she was sure he'd get an 8! He has consistently been above target by two grades and only fell in the mocks so her comment doesn't even make sense. His physics teacher was off on paternity leave and the biology teacher spoke for them both and the message was the same - no problem he'll get a 6 . But he's shown the capability of getting much higher, especially in physics but to a lesser extent also in biology, especially most recently. He said they are running revision sessions but ds isn't on the list to attend as he'll get his target grade - no mention of maybe getting higher. When I mentioned this and also said I do find it odd that he consistently does so well in maths and surely there is some overlap, especially with physics, he stuttered a bit and said of course ds can attend. But if it's just aimed at getting kids their targets will there be any point?

I'm not really pushy and if he gets all his target grades he'll have done very well, but it's annoying that he does seem to have the potential to do better, has done so in the past and yet no teacher of science seems remotely interested in that as they are just focused on his target, which seems to have been pulled out of the air anyway. Also, ds wants to do well and they all agree he works hard and he is clearly a capable child so surely this should be translating into better grades. I'm also worried that he maybe should be rethinking his A level choices, but keep coming back to the fact that he has shown the capability.

I teach English and we don't give grades for stand alone assessments - we band them and focus on the next steps students need to take and then give grades for the mocks. Nonetheless we do track progress and if a student had fallen the equivalent of two grades across a year, I'd have plenty to say at parents' evening and it wouldn't occur to me to even check their target as I don't think much about them (unless they are massively high and it isn't matching what I see) as I focus more on the work they are producing and how it can be improved. I think I'll email the HoD - does this seem reasonable? I don't want to be that parent, but I feel this isn't good enough.

You make it sound as though the teachers are actually blocking him from achieving beyond his target grades.
The work / effort has to come from him.

Yes, I know that. But they have all said (as I pointed out) that he works hard so that isn't the issue. Maybe he could be working 'smarter' but they would be the ones to advise how he could do that, but they did not, though the biology teacher did do that in the summer and that seems to have worked, yet he is still saying ds will get a 6!

Sorry, that's really annoyed me! If I mark a students' work and just point out what they have done well but don't tell them that, for instance, if they included more powerful vocabulary and varied their sentence structures more they could get a higher mark, then, yes, I am effectively blocking them from the higher grades. If I've chosen to withhold that information to save me time because they are on target, then that's appalling. Yes, the information is online and in revision guides, but what is the point in us being teachers if we don't do our bit too?!

If you're a teacher and you don't grade assessments then presumably you know that's because grading individual assessments is bollocks. With this in mind 'falling two grades across the year' is actually meaningless.

I really wouldn't pay that much attention to grades in Y10, think of them as a ballpark not a science because they're not and asking the HOD to justify them will only end in meaningless platitudes.

Is your DS actually in Y11 now? What mocks are you talking about?

Yes, I do know that @noblegiraffe and I think that's why I'm hesitating to get in touch as I know they'll say something along those lines. But it annoys me - why give them scores as grades when it's meaningless! I've always wondered this about the 'grades' this school gives out, but because ds1 did so well throughout I sort of ignored it - the high grades he got did translate into all 9s at GCSE. Now I have always thought ds2 is not likely to get those grades (he hasn't the drive) but up until this point, the 'grades' he's been getting have been very similar to those ds1 got at similar points. I don't think that's helpful in showing progress and capability.

Yes, he's Y11 now and the mocks took place at the end of the summer. The ones he has coming up just before Christmas will obviously give a much clearer indication of his likely final grades.

why give them scores as grades when it's meaningless!

Good question. I think it's because SLT like having numbers to track.

Target grades (in most schools) are set based on FFT data which is based on sats.

The years that did not do sats there was a terrible kerfuffle (at least in my school) about what to set the target grades based on and I think eventually they went with a mix of cats and teacher input.

It is normal for interventions to be focused on students who are not teaching their target grade. This is largely meaningless, especially at ks3 although it gets slightly more useful in year 10 and year 11 when the data is at least based on mock papers.

Most schools will offer revision sessions available to students and for subjects like maths/science these will be split by ability.

Sorry - just to add -

Certainly as a maths teacher I hate the practice of giving gcse grades based on in class assessments.

We used to do that and it was so bad.

We'd do two weeks of algebra and then do a short test and give a grade based off literally three questions. Then we'd move on to number and do the same.

Kids who were good at algebra might get a "9" on the algebra but at "6" on the number but all it actually meant was they were good at algebra but not so good at number.

It confuses the parents as well.

But if it's school policy or departmental policy you have to do it.

We stopped after a while and just graded the in class assessment as on track or not on track. Much simpler, and actually easier for parents and kids to understand.

The only assessment that you can get a good feel for the grade a kid is likely to get in maths or science is a full on mock.

The in class "grades" are largely meaningless and there are always multiple kids who can do the topic when it's just been taught but six months later on the year 10 exam have no clue.

Yes, I'm obviously in agreement with @noblegiraffe and @Octavia64 about the limitations of grading end of unit assessments. As HoD I have a degree of influence over this in my school but other departments do it still. However, I do think it's slightly different from my original point. DS did get 6s in two of his science mocks and a 7 in the other (a high 7). Now they are all just saying he'll get a 6 and that's fine. Now obviously I know progress is not guaranteed from the Y10 mocks to the Y11 exams, but neither is it impossible! Surely there should be some talk of his making progress from these, perhaps especially as he seems to have strength in certain topics? And is his maths grade not of any relevance? Ok, he may never really have been 'on' a grade 8 in chemistry for example, but that doesn't excuse the teacher saying there's nothing to say and all the focus being on his target grade now?

I'd expect in maths an average of 3/4 of a grade's progress from y10 mock to year 11 actual. Obviously varies by students - some students improve by 2 grades- but that's the historical data from my school.

Most subjects kids make progress from year 10 mocks to year 11 actuals.

Maths ability only really impacts physics, and only then if the students really really struggles with maths. Bio and chem there's no real relationship.

Certainly at the school I most recently worked at HoD and SLT were interested in students getting their target grade and the focus was always on the students not on target.

Kids on target or (very rarely in my school) above target could attend open revision sessions etc but there was no way they would have any extra resources thrown at them.

Schools do seem to vary in how focused they are on their progress 8. My school was absolutely laser focused on it so if your kid was on or above target no chance of extra support.

If you want him to do a levels in bio and chem he'll probably need a tutor.

Thanks for this, @Octavia64 . Obviously this school may view things differently but I think most are similar with around a grade's progress being expected between Y10 mocks and GCSEs. Like you say, if they just scraped a grade then maybe not, but we should be telling them what to do to make it more secure. So a high 7 in biology should be indicating the possibility of an 8 at GCSE. Not a 6.

Yes, at my school SLT etc care about targets, but with P8 actually that's not a particularly efficient way of doing it because kids can balance each other out. Obviously for this cohort there is no P8 so they're even more misguided to be focusing only on the target grades.

Just re-read - your school was missing a trick! If you had a grade 4 student who is on target and you 'throw resources' and support at them and they get a 5 or even higher, they would make up for someone else not getting their target grades. And the actual grades don't matter - could be 6 to a 7 or even 2 to a 3.

Kids on target or (very rarely in my school) above target could attend open revision sessions etc but there was no way they would have any extra resources thrown at them.

But surely their teachers would tell them how to improve and discuss this at parents' evening? This is a basic element of the job! We all have to jump through the hoops SLT set for us (and I've just joined SLT at my school) even if they're wrong, but we are really there for the kids and if a child has the capability to do better we should be doing our bit to make that happen.

I am not sure what you want really. He works as hard as he can and gets the grade he deserves at the end of it. If you want him to do the revision classes say so. I think target grades based on FFT are rubbish anyway. He is working hard and the teachers feel he is doing his best. What do you actually want beyond wishing he was achieving 7s or 8s?

I think it's clear I want teachers to identify and explain how he can improve. That's what I do, in class and then reiterate again at parents' evening. It's basic stuff. And he is getting 7s and 8s in other subjects, including one which has some related skills. If he's just not that good at these subjects, fine. But the way these teachers speak doesn't instil me with confidence.

So at my school we would not discuss in detail what a child needed to do to improve, not least because the appointments are only 5 mins long and that's a much longer conversation.

So we do invest a lot of time in making sure the students know this.

We do:

After the year 10 mocks we do a question by question analysis of the exam papers. Each student will get a printout of the questions that they got right and the ones they got wrong. They will then usually get told to use an online platform (we use Dr Frost but other ones are available) to spend time revising the topics that they didn't know.

We also email home automatically this analysis along with the logins for Dr Frost and the list of topics their child needs to work on. So for maths it might look like:

Circle theorems, algebraic fractions, quadratics, probability etc.

The teachers will look at the papers and see where the whole class is weak. These topics will then be addressed through either starters or revision homework which is gone through in class.

I would be incredibly surprised if you aren't this stage in year 11 and your child has not had a list like this either emailed to him or you, stuck in his book, or made available to him in some other way.

For science my school uses tassomai which is a bit like Duolingo in that you do it every day. Again, he would have a list of topics to revise, either from the year 10 mock or tassomai will generate lists of topics he gets wrong,

I think it is kind of obvious that he isn't as good in these sciences as you would like him to be. If you think he can cope with more work then rather than bicker about target grades just ask his teachers for recommendations of online or workbooks or GCSE practice that might help him move to a 7 or 8.

The teachers should be telling him how he can improve his grades. My DD goes to a good state school (ofsted outstanding) and they always told her / us at parents evening how to push for higher grades. They provided sheets with websites and resources for extra reading in order to push grades up. The only one who was hopeless was the economics teacher. He was actually sacked at Easter of year 11, he marked the mocks wrong for a start and it really upset my DD. She definitely took on board all the extra advice and came out with top grades. I think the teachers being complacent doesn’t exactly give the child anything to aim for, it sounds like he’s very capable and he should set his sights on the higher grades. Can you email the school and ask for some resources for extra reading / study, or ask at next parents evening. As they get closer to GCSE’s they should start doing a lot of practice papers which will give him some help on where he can get more marks