Effect of VAT on admissions - any intel?

[BarqsHasBite]

We are applying for secondaries for DS, main target is an independent school but he’s also tried for a partially selective state school.

Am wondering if anyone has any intel on the effect on admissions numbers of Labour’s VAT on school fees policy?

I went to the open morning for our target school and having attended the same event last year numbers did seem down. In previous years it has been fully booked, but I’d say today the hall was 3/4 full at most. However, another nearby indy was also having an open day so that could have been a reason other than VAT.

On the state school side of the coin: my friend’s son sat the entrance exam for QE Barnet and she estimated there were 4,000 boys sitting it over two days - if so that’s up around a third on last year!

Does anyone else have any actual or anecdotal insights please?

Depend on the private schools, there are those with alumni list and parents associations that are donating, therefore the full VAT are not passed on. Usually the boys only or coed schools seems to be effective in targeting for fund raising.

@LangYang That's a lot of money right enough. I think it would be worth going to see a state school before you commit to moving. I've had to take my DC out of school entirely because it was too awful.

I think you might think the tax is vindictive, but only once you see what state education is actually like, will you realise why they are levying this tax. The state system is on its knees.

@SchoolyStuff i hear you, that’s why we went private in the first place. The state grammar dc is now targeting is 500 years old and has better facilities than their current private school. But the options if they don’t get in there are less salubrious. It’s nowhere near a level playing field is it.

I guess the equivalent would be to tax private health care provision as the nhs is on its knees. I suppose that’s coming next.

Wow, much generalisation! There are many fantastic, non selective state schools , which the majority of the population happily attend. May be a surprise to you that some of us choose state over private for non financial reasons!

Profit driven? Isn't it illegal for schools to make a profit from what they charge for education?

At the risk of derailing my own thread: I think both that the state system is in massive need of funding and that this tax is completely vindictive.

On the government’s own analysis this will raise enough to pay for 1/3 of an extra teacher per state school. 1/3!!! How is that going to help anyone?! And it will probably be less than this as they have likely underestimated how many kids will be diverted from independent to state schools. But it will cause enormous disruption to kids who get moved from their schools, especially those part way through GCSE and A Levels.

Either way, rather than coming up with proper funding proposals Labour just uses this as a populist distraction technique in the hope no-one realises they are incapable of tackling the issue substantively.

It’s no better than the Tories trying to distract everyone from their immigration failures by banging on about small boats and deportation to Rwanda. It’s all populist crap/rearranging deck chairs.

Private health care is already taxed!

@GoldLameDarling not comparably with VAT on school fees.

I’ve just had a look at various private health care invoices in my inbox and I can’t see VAT itemised on any of them? At any rate I expect I soon will!

This could also by driven by the push on universities to give state kids lower offers. Moving to state sixth form makes sense on more than a financial level.

its not going to even provide 1/3 of a teacher per school, the Adam Smith report says this will cost the government money (and not make any money) if only 10% of students switch from private to state (which is highly likely given another survey mentioned that up to 25% are likely to switch)…and somehow breakfast club is also going to be funded with this VAT money and maybe even clothing for the Labour Party at this rate...

If they really want to improve state schools, first they need to have more funding from outside the education pot, not from within! Retention is a huge problem - pushing more kids into state schools means larger class sizes and why do teachers need to put up with this when they can get better jobs elsewhere with less stress especially with bigger class sizes going forward.

Its like taxing private health which will divert people to use NHS instead- do you think the NHS waiting list will get shorter or longer?

A fairer way will be to increase income tax so that way the rich people taking up the state school places are also taxed, so those genuinely with “the broadest shoulders” will get taxed to help fund state schools. Sadly this VAT only impact those without the broadest shoulders who end up moving their children - the rich people have already prepaid their fees (without VAT) so aren’t even impacted by this (we know someone who has prepaid 12 years in advance) and don’t care that it’s becoming more elitist and that the divide will worsen.

Yes adding another penny on top rate to higher and additional rate income tax would be fairer and raise much more money.

Ditto adding another 1% on stamp duty for the homes costing £1m plus that people in my area buy purely to get in the excellent state secondary school!

But it’s not taken Labour long to show they’d rather pursue ideological goals (while happily taking freebies and perks themselves).

Errr, really? If you have two kids (say) in the system, it’s an extra 8-10k out of taxed income (as PP said, equating to 15k+ of gross income). This on top of usual annual rises of 5-10% and then all other things such as utilities and mortgage payments going up for parents in the last couple of years.

I accept the policy, but it’s incorrect to say that people must be “close to the edge” if they can’t manage it. If our kids were starting now, rather than nearing the end, we wouldn’t start them.

I just have one, nearing the end. It's a choice of private school or no school at all for him at this point.

I'm home schooling with the specific aim of getting him to a private school asap. I don't care what it costs really. He can't go back into the state system.

@turkeymuffin yes spot on. But you’re not allowed to ever say that on mumsnet. I have tried before. But enough people have seen their neighbours’ dc living in the same £2m house who switched to state for sixth form get an offer a ful grade less than their dc to study the same course at the same university…that does influence next steps for sixth from for the younger dc. Seen that play out many times but, like I say, not allowed to say that on mumsnet and I’ve been told I’m lying previoualy.

I don’t think you are lying, but contextual offers aren’t just about whether you are at a state school or not.

When my elder child went into year 7 two years ago, there were 80 kids plus a waiting list, there’s about 60 this year for my next child’s cohort

the rich people have already prepaid their fees (without VAT) so aren’t even impacted by this (we know someone who has prepaid 12 years in advance)

Tax experts say that they will still have to pay the extra VAT as they haven't actually been billed for those 12 years yet. They can't have paid a bill that hasn't been issued.

They won't all get in by quite a way. Grammar sixth forms have limited places for 6th Form entry and it's based on predictions and subject choices (is there room). We've always had a range of schools join us. From top independent to 'failing' local comp. More independent candidates won't push out comp ones. They'll have very similar predicted grade profiles.
My own 6th Form classes have a wide range of backgrounds as always and I anticipate that to continue. We also didn't see a massive increase in Year 7 entrance exam entries (although deadline was before the election so we'll see next year).
Independent sector locally has been consolidating for years - they've had issues with international recruitment, but most have invested heavily in provision. Teachers of minority subjects in these schools are getting a bit anxious though.

They can and they have, the invoices have been raised. Labour themselves in their draft have stated vat is payable for any fees due after 29th July. The schools all invoiced for year 1, 2 3 etc adding on inflation.

@GrammarTeacher yes, everyone is cogniscant of that, which is why I said in an earlier post “if they get in”. All the local grammars quite rightly prioritise their own year 11s so external applicants coming in are battling for very few spaces.

Y9 private secondary had places at the start fi this academic year despite kids sitting for 11+ 2 years earlier.

Our local independent school is prioritising boarders over day pupils to maintain their income stream so it's actually changed the dynamics

This whole complaint genuinely perplexed me as private schools seem to have historically lifted fees by 8% or so a year and there has never been a Mumsnet outcry, suggesting everyone has absorbed it.

Would you all have taken your kids out in a Couple of years anyway as it had reached tipping point? I get that this is 20 % on top and not chicken feed but looking ahead you must have factored in hefty rises from a school level before you took the plunge?

Finally someone speaking sense, I wouldn’t go private as I wasn’t comfortable with a 50% rise (at least), and I thought carefully about my financial planning. More fool those who didn’t.

I think it’s a fuss over nothing. Fees have been steadily rising already without outcry and removing the VAT exemption is entirely fair.