Grammar stream: just a marketing buzzword? Any different from being in the top set?

[ParentOfOne]

I have noticed that some state, non-selective secondary schools now have "grammar streams".
They do not admit any pupils based on a test and regardless of distance.
They still admit mostly based on distance. But admitted students sit a test and the best ones are put in a "grammar stream".

They make a big song and dance about it, but my question is.... is this any different from dividing students into different sets or streams but without shouting "grammar stream" from the rooftops? (I understand sets can vary by subject while a stream applies to all subjects, right?)

This is an article from 5 years ago about this trend: https://schoolsweek.co.uk/91656-2/

At this school https://www.barnsley-academy.org/education-with-character/the-grammar-stream "They will be taught a more challenging and in-depth curriculum from Year 7 onwards, as well as having access to a programme of extracurricular opportunities". The structure in most schools (academies) of this group seems the same

It seems that this group has taken over a number of schools which weren't doing well. So is this just a marketing buzzword to signal that, under new management, they are much better?

Or is there some merit to it? In which case, what would be the difference from the typical school that divides students into sets or streams?

Well it means that a child who is truly gifted at maths but poor at English would not be able to be taught maths alongside others of the same ability.

I think it works differently in different schools. One academy chain, for example, keeps the kids for an extra 3 hours a week and offers Latin and an extra musical instrument in their grammar stream, plus they go on extra trips and residential. They are kept with their class for some subjects though so that’s different from other schools that stream (not many do). Sets are usually subject based and often only apply to Maths or Maths and English in year 7 then sciences follow in year 9 or 10. It’s definitely not a bad thing imo but I do think it has its limitations. I’d prefer top ability children to be taught at grammar level (which yes, is largely very different from even excellent comprehensive schools) across all of their subjects. This often isn’t possible, though, especially with our problems with recruitment and retention - unfortunately, a sizeable number of teachers just don’t have the subject knowledge to be able to deliver this or aren’t able to with the focus of management being on getting grades.

@Moglet4 " I’d prefer top ability children to be taught at grammar level (which yes, is largely very different from even excellent comprehensive schools) across all of their subjects"

Can you please elaborate? I ask because, of the most likely school for our child, one does this "grammar stream" while another applies sets for most subjects.

@Mumofteenandtween made the excellent point that this prevents a child who excels in one subject but not others from being taught at their level.

However, assuming a child is at the same ability in most subjects, what do you mean by 'grammar level' and how do you see it differing from the top set? The school in question mentions that grammar stream pupils are expected to learn a musical instrument and have some dedicated seminars and university visits - all cool stuff, but not necessarily transformational.

I have taught in super selective grammar, private, ‘outstanding’ state and some very, very far from outstanding. There is a big difference between the teaching in grammar and in top set state- in my subject, at least. In comprehensives, you teach to the test from day 1 of year 7; the schemes of work are set up around this, the assessments are, the content is, even the way the students are taught to answer questions is. In grammar (even more so in private), this is not the case. Teachers have the freedom to teach skills rather than GCSE content so can use the areas within a subject that they have enthusiasm for. In terms of actual tangible results, students can end up with the same - a string of 8s and 9s but in the comprehensives there has been a lot of hand holding and it rarely leads to the same love of a subject that it does in those who have been given wider exposure. In terms of whether you think it’s worth it, it very much depends on what you value in education- in my case, I prefer my children to have the enthusiasm for the subjects and the wider knowledge rather than a high achievement on paper but actually a very narrow exposure to the subject. This is why I chose grammar and private for them.

I should add, though, that I don’t know exactly what the grammar stream would offer in an individual school - it might be worth a more in depth chat with the school in question

@Moglet4 Thank you so much, very useful!
So it all comes down to understanding if this 'grammar set' is more similar to a grammar, with the benefits that you mention, or to a top set.

It's a very difficult thing to look into, because the school is unlikely to admit teaching to the test, and most pupils/families won't have experience of both grammar and grammar stream to compare.

I suppose the big difference is that grammars do not select based on distance, so in a grammar you're more likely to find more talented / academic pupils, because a grammar stream simply means the best among those selected (mostly) by distance.

Your point about teaching to the state does resonate. I have often wondered how much very harsh schools like Micaela etc simply teach to the test but at the cost of shattering the will to live (at least in certain pupils).

A comp nearby has one "grammar class". The school itself is very mixed intake and I'm not sure wether they set remaining pupils. I'd prefer just regular sets instead of "all or nothing" situation.

The cynic in me thinks that Barnsley Academy is doing this because it doesn't have a great reputation and it wants to raise its profile.

"teaching to the state"
of course I meant teaching to the test!

@RampantIvy "The cynic in me thinks that Barnsley Academy is doing this because it doesn't have a great reputation and it wants to raise its profile."

Yes, that was my exact same thought. Especially because this group of academies has a tendency to take over schools with issues. So it may be marketing gimmick to convince the families who would have never sent little Johnny to Crapsville School that now Crapsville is actually Shining Academy and, guess what, they even have a grammar stream... After all, the mere word 'grammar' will trigger some kind of pavlovian response in a number of parents.

The school DS is at is part of United Learning, they launched a ‘Gifted Stem stream’ the year he started (he’s year 13 now). The kids had to apply to join it once they had been allocated a place at the school, which involved writing an application, sitting a test and then being invited for interview. As a result it is rather self selecting - despite being very high achieving DS didn’t want to do it.

As far as I can remember, the stream was taught separately for stem subjects, but mixed with the rest of the year for everything else. They had to stay for an extra period after school 4 times a week and had a wide range of trips and activities which were all free of charge.

The fact that DS got 4 9s and 5 8s in his GCSE which was better than a good proportion of those in the stem stream does make me question the value of it.

@dontletmedowngently the school I was writing above is in Fulham and UL as well, is it the same school?

Do they set remaining students for STEM, or only grammar - non grammar? I'm going to an open morning in few weeks.

Are you actually interested in Barnsley Academy for your DC? Do you know how long they've had this "grammar stream". If you look here, you'll see that the most recent class for which there is data had 26 pupils classified as having high prior attainment. That probably overlaps quite heavily with the 30 pupils in their grammar stream. However, the P8 score for these pupils (-0.47) isn't great, and is below that for the other pupils in the school.

@WonderingAR no we’re in the Midlands.

There were 30 places in the stem stream, the year group was about 270 in total so the rest were still set for those subjects. The differences were that stem stream had to do CS and triple science for gcse, there were only about 30 spaces for non stem kids to do those GCSEs. I think they were also offered FM which even DS in the top set of maths wasn’t offered.

It’s not something I would have chosen the school for, there is an awful lot about the way they are run that I don’t agree with. I’m from an area that has grammars and attended one, which has left me with a very strong dislike of the whole system. They do seem to have far more money thanks to being part of UL than the other schools in town that belong to different MATs.

I suspect this is spot on. A grammar stream based on 'general ability' is a great way of separating out the middle class kids so that they don't have to mix with the riff raff.
Given that this sorting happens after students have arrived at the school, I'd love to be a fly in the wall when certain parents realise that their little darling didn't make the grammar stream. My guess is that most schools would capitulate pretty quickly in the face of angry professionals with pointy elbows appealing a decision...

@WonderingAR are you talking about the Hurlingham Academy in Fulham? They have a grammar stream but it's not clear to me if the kids who are not in the grammar stream are then divided by sets or if they're all together. They don't have a sixth form - they send kids to the Elms Academy, part of the same group, in Clapham Common, which used to be the Lambeth Academy and used to have a not so great reputation.

Hurlingham has been rated outstanding (but ratings must always be taken with a truckload of salt).

@ParentOfOne Yes I do.
Anyway what's the point of going for A-levels to Elms if there's FBS and many more locally. Even Ashcroft not so far away.

@WonderingAR may I ask what your thoughts on Hurlingham are?

I wonder if the fact that the school doesn't have a 6th form will put off some families, or if it's not a big deal.

I get it that admission into 6th form is typically not automatic anyway, but I wonder if some families would see the need to move to a new school for 6th form as a downside (maybe not academically but for the social aspect) or if it's really not that much of a deal.

@ParentOfOne I know that some parents choose other local'ish schools because they have 6th form. Most don't care to compare GCSEs results.
I'm also not impressed by some behaviours (though nothing major) and outfits, like winter jackets in 20 degrees outside - sorry but it just annoys me though I have no other schools to compare :)) so personally for me it's more about wether my child will fit in. That's why I'm looking at different schools, to have comparators.

I know of a few schools who do this in various parts of England. The schools tend to be big comps in less good areas and the thing they all had in common was the "grammar " stream kids had different breaks and lunch times, keeping them socially separate to the rest of the year. The parents I know with kids in them arranging generally very happy with the arrangements.

As a parent I'd prefer to send my child to a school where I don't need to be worried about him not getting into that lucky 30 kids from the "grammar stream", especially while not having precise criteria like cut off SATs score.
I want them to be able to change sets even if their entry test results were not great.

So it's a way to minimise interactions between the children of doctors and the children of single mums in council flats, basically?

@ParentOfOne children of doctors don't tend to go to state schools :))

Or to avoid bullying?

I think an NHS consultant with 5-10 years of experience can make between £5-6.5k net per month. Certainly way higher than most people (but not undeservedly, and I am not a doctor) but I'm not sure it's sufficient to live in Fulham and send 1,let alone 2 children to private schools.

@ParentOfOne sending kids to private school is a matter of wealth, not income. Also there's plenty of faith schools to choose from for middle class parents, from Oratory to Lady Margaret. So in Hurlingham I believe grammar stream is about trying to get better results , strongly doubt middle class of Fulham sends their kids there at all.