Grammar school journey how to start?

[bsaknop]

In my area, there are no grammar schools and my son is year 4 targeting for grammar school. Can anyone please advise how the grammar school admission works ? is it common entrance to all grammar school or individual apply to every school or need to move into catchupment area and attempt the entrance..

currently i am in surrey westbyfleet and which is best place where more grammar schools are there? or can i do the house move after securing the admission? please advise

In Gloucestershire it's common entrance. They are also super selective so you could take the test and move afterwards. I think some other areas are different on admission criteria - catchment etc

Are you talking about state grammar schools?
The schools themselves would all have the admissions info online but for where I am (Bexley) you can apply from anywhere to sit the 11+ which takes place in September of Year 6 but then you out them down on your usual council secondary application school form. If you've passed 11+ then in Bexley the criteria is on distance so you'd need to be living in a school close enough to get in, by Year 6. That's different in other areas though.

It's a big gamble to move house for grammar schools when you've no idea if your child will get in and pass the test!

There are no grammar schools in a reasonable distance where you live now @bsaknop. Here is the interactive map of the UK grammar schools.
So you are not in a catchment and with your current location you can still try for state grammar schools that have no catchment as such.

But if you are considering moving, I would move to so called Grammar Counties where the grammar accept up to 25 perc of the local cohort. It is easier to get in than to London superselective grammars where less than 1 perc of local cohort from the catchment is accepted ( if there is a catchment).

Consider Kent, Bucks as there are many grammar schools

Grammar schools are state schools (unless they are private schools using "grammar" in their name - but I don't think that's what you mean) so as others say, you need to list them on your preference form along with any comprehensives you are interested in. Depending how many preference spaces you get of course.

I am not an expert (except for grammars in the area I am from) but the closer you are to the grammar, the better. Obvs you also need to have passed the grammar test in order to apply. The information will be on school and LA websites.

Bear in mind that if your DC does not pass the test, they are left with secondary moderns where all the brightest children have been creamed off. Not an environment I would want tbh (and as above, I was brought up in a grammar area). I wouldn't personally move house just on the chance that my child would get into a grammar.

Not sure I would move for a grammar school. Grammar schools get good results because they are selective - I'm not convinced that they add a huge amount of value.

A comprehensive school will work with their most able students and get pretty similar results with that cohort. This was the case with my son's school - with a pathway for the most academic who just got really great GCSEs.

Surrey doesn't have a grammar school system. Schools are all mixed ability & there are several 'outstanding' secondaries. I don't think there are any that are dreadful (I'm more familiar with the Guildford and Woking schools). I know a family who sent DC to Wallington but moved them in year 8 as the journey was horrendous & the school didn't offer anything above the local secondary. (Actually offered less as the secondary in Guildford offered courses at the university for the brightest & most able pupils)

If you are set on grammar then you will probably need to go private unless you move.

@clary
they are left with secondary moderns where all the brightest children have been creamed off.
Nonsense. My son attended Outstanding primary in London with many kids achieving excellent SAT results. Only 2 kids went to grammar school. The rest went to excellent comprehensives or faith schools around. Several of them are in top 100 state schools in UK. In most of the school are sets so children are adeauately stimulated.

The times when there was a division: grammar for bright kids and comprehensive for future physical labour have ended after second world war

this isn’t the case in places with just a few grammars but still is in pure grammar counties where everyone sits the 11+ by default - bucks and Kent I believe, there may be others.

OP:
For Bucks it is one test which allows you to apply for any bucks school if you pass. How high your score is over the pass mark is irrelevant. If you pass, you also need to live near the school to get a place. I believe for bucks you have to have lived there from August in y5 (not 100% sure on the date) in order for that to count as your address - you definitely couldn’t move after passing the test.

I understand for some grammar schools anyone can take the test and they just take the top 100/150/however many scores. These are super selective. I think for some of these you could pass the test then move nearby after.

I’d suggest you think about where you’d like to live and investigate individual schools in the area.

Grammar schools aren’t the be all and end all. There are plenty of decent comprehensives around that do an excellent job with bright children and there is no stress over exams - especially in Surrey. It is worth really doing your research first into local options, you could find your local comprehensive has students with a string of high results and top university entrances and there is no point in going to the expensive of moving and tutoring. (Unless you have other reasons for moving.)

If not, then you need to make sure that you have a really good back up option. Every year, children don’t pass who would usually, because they had a bad day, missed a page of questions or something because it’s a very crude way of deciding.

London has an educational landscape that is not the same as many other areas of the country. Density of population and historically relatively high per capita financial support of schools of all types means parents have much more effective choice in terms of school, whether selective or otherwise.

@clary's point still stands. In many remaining grammar areas, outside London, you have little effective choice if your child does not sit or pass the 11+. Many secondary moderns, whether called that or otherwise, do an excellent job but inevitably are handicapped if the brightest potential cohorts are skimmed off.

The advantage of a true comprehensive, with a broad socio-economic catchment, is that it allows children without access to tutoring or other similar advantages and/or whose development trajectory and skills do not neatly align to certain tests at the age of 10 to bloom later at secondary and beyond.

It varies. Some are "super selective" and offer places regardless of where you live based on test scores achieved, others apply distance rules, some apply distance but also have a number of spaces for out of area applicants based on score. Kent LA, for example, has a universal exam but some of its grammars still run their own. Other area grammars may have separate tests.

@PeachSalad that may well be the case where you are but there are plenty of grammar areas where what I said is broadly what happens. I am from South Lincs and it was the case there (and still is AFAIK) that the grammars take the most able DC (when assessed at age 11 fgs) and the sec mods are left with the less able. As you can tell I don't rate the system.

And maybe get your terminology right please if you are going to tell me I am talking nonsense. A comprehensive is not for the children who don't get to grammar - it's in the name - comprehensive schools take all abilities. Btw that division you speak of was certainly alive and well when I was at school - a long time after the second world war; I'm not that old whatever my DC would tell you!

@clary It is a case in less than a handful of grammar counties but it is not something we can apply countrywide.
There are many many places in UK where there is zero of grammar schools

Not sure what age you are but probably around 70. In 1965 the government started phasing out grammars and the division as it used to be ceased to exist.

The term secondary modern probably only makes sense in 3 counties.

Parts of Lancashire and North Yorkshire have an 11+ system. Test and catchment - distance from the school.

One of the North Yorkshire grammars offers boarding too. Test and furthest distance from the school,

@PeachSalad I am well aware that there are many counties with no grammar schools. That's kind of the OP's point.

But I was talking (obviously tho perhaps it's not obvious) about the areas where most or a lot of DC sit the 11plus in year 6 and go on to grammar or whatever the other school chooses to call itself.

I was at school in the 1980s and there was still a division between those who went to the grammar schools and those who didn't. If you were bright but at the sec mod you were double entered for CSE and GCE. What a great system that was not. I know how old I am and what my education was like and what the system was like (and continued to be like). If the government had phased out grammars altogether in 1965 then I would not have gone to one and people would not be going to them now.

No indeed we cannot apply this countrywide. But the OP is looking at grammar school areas - and in those areas it is surely the case that if a certain percentage of the most able DC at 10-11 go to grammar schools, then the other schools will feature lower ability DC. The percentage will vary for sure - if it's 5-10% in grammar then that's not such an issue,. But if you take the top 25% and put them in a separate school, then the lower 75% are left in a school without those high achievers. I am just making the point that you have to be happy with your DC possibly attending that school. That's all.

It is important to recognise there are three 'types' of area, with regard grammar schools:

Large swathes of the England (and all of Scotland and Wales) where only the comprehensive school system exists and where the nearest grammar is at an unrealistic distance to commute.

Some areas where grammar schools (sometimes super-selective, sometimes not), sit amongst comprehensive schools; their mere presence can distort the proper functioning of nearby comprehensives because they cream off bright pupils who otherwise might have attended; parts of Birmingham and Manchester and parts of Lancashire and Yorkshire, for example, are affected in this way.

Some areas that fully retain the grammar/secondary modern system (including all of Northern Ireland); examples include the 'grammar' counties already mentioned but also areas like Torbay and Bournemouth/Poole. In these locations, the disadvantages that secondary moderns labour under are very obvious.

@clary has a very good grasp of the geographical differences I have outlined above. Your suggestion@PeachSalad to the OP to consider moving to a grammar county is potentially high risk. Yes, the chances of passing the 11+ may be greater than in the case of, say, a London-located super-selective, but the consequences of not doing so means a potential narrowing down of choices and opportunities, in a way that is not true in London; the only alternative may be the local secondary modern, which might suit the OP's child or might not.

The government starting phasing out in 1965 and most of the grammars were phased put by the 70ties. They were turn into comprehensives or turned to private by the independent providers. Only a fraction that is 163 school exist by now. You must have attended one of those that survived

But if you take the top 25% and put them in a separate school, then the lower 75% are left in a school without those high achievers. I am just making the point that you have to be happy with your DC possibly attending that school.

Only if she moves to the centre to grammar counties that is Bucks Kent Lincolnshire, because if she moves to the border of these she may still have access to comprehensives from other counties.
Everywhere else the grammar accept less than 2-1 perc of local population

The closest Grammar school to where I lived in Bucks told us at open day that they would no longer be taking children from out of catchment.

What do you mean by "targeting for Grammar"?

Wherever you move in pursuit of a Grammar school be careful to make sure you would also have access to a good comprehensive.

Because by Yr 4 you cannot guarantee that your child will get a grammar place. The competition might be too great, he might not achieve his best on the day if the exam, the type of exam might not suit him.

I would look for an area with access to good comps.

The majority of high achievers coming out of state schools come from comprehensive schools. Because grammar is a small sector of provision overall.

Yes indeed @PeachSalad I am well aware that there were not that many grammar school areas when I was at school – indeed I knew that at the time! Pretty sure we all know that – or the OP would not be talking about moving to a grammar school area.

I’ll say it again: in some of those areas (depending on what % is creamed off by grammar) there is still a division between grammar and sec mod or whatever it is called.

So I agree with your and others’ advice that if the OP does move for grammar, they make sure they are close to possible actual comps as well. Again, I would not personally make this the only or main reason for moving.

Again, I would not personally make this the only or main reason for moving.

Of course, all depends on job and financial situation

We live in Gloucestershire where there are a handful of grammars. Entrance here is super competitive and it’s worth stressing that you don’t have to be at primary school in Gloucestershire to apply. Students from as far away as Bristol apply. Numbers applying have gone up significantly in the past 5 years.

OP isn't that far from the Sutton grammar schools. A move of 5-10 miles eastwards or north-eastward would put them well within reach. A couple of them (e.g. Wilson's for boys) are 'super selective' and will treat applications from anywhere in the country equally. So for those schools is it possible to apply and then move if the application is successful. But I'm fairly sure that distance is a criterion for applications to some of the others. You could try the Surrey subforum of the 11+ website for detailed, up to date, information.

There’s a lot of chat on here about Bucks and it’s not accurate. Firstly there’s an assumption that all the higher achievers get to a grammar. They do not. Schools like Waddesdon and other secondary moderns have around 30% high achievers. That’s more than plenty of comprehensives. Therefore, as you might expect, results are on par with lots of comps and better than plenty. Bucks dc achieve very well! Therefore if the Op moved to Bucks, moving into the catchment of a high performing secondary modern is the best policy. All schools have catchment areas but if the grammars aren’t full, they take by distance. Some of the neighbouring comps do lose dc to Bucks grammars.

Thd pass rate varies in terms of where you live in Bucks. Much more dc pass in south Bucks - North and mid Bucks it’s less and isn’t 25%. Some areas are nearer 40% and more of these DC are in private schools in south Bucks.

Some very popular grammars might have different residence rules. Anyone moving to Bucks must look at individual school admission rules and must ensure they are in catchment for a good secondary. Plus many grammars in Bucks have very good progress scores. Better than many comps.