EPQ - DD's school doesn't offer them - worth doing independently?

[TempersFuggit]

Hi everyone, hope you can help. Encouraged by a friend of mine, DD wants to do a EPQ along with her A levels in the following subjects - Spanish, History and Politics. (Friend's DD went private where EPQ's seem to be standard).
It seems that DD's school doesn't offer them, so I am left with the task of finding a course for her.
DD loves her subjects, and is very diligent, and would actually enjoy the process of writing a mini thesis, so I think it would be a good fit for her, but not sure where to start. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

You can Google online course but it's expensive and not necessary. Focus on getting 3 great a level results instead. Not all private schools offer EPQ's because some schools don't regarded them as the best use of a student's time.

your dd could focus instead on “ supra curricular” stuff to show independent research - mooch’s, lecture, Ted talks, reading etc depending on her uni subjects.

I agree with pps, EPQ is a bit of a thief of time and while it helps with essay writing and research skills, I think a) best possible A level grades and b) good supra curriculars (so not playing footy or clarinet (unless relevant) but researching uni subject and taking part in online and real.events relating to it) are a better use of time.

There is a poster on this board who works with students taking EPQ who speaks v positively about it, and it is offered in lots of state schools actually, but i suspect taking it out of school would be challenging and probs not worth it.

Edited to add: great that she is taking Spanish! There's scope there to work on getting a great grade (rather than taking EPQ) as that's a challenge with MFL sometimes.

DD goes to a private school that is considered to be pretty stellar academically and they don't do EPQs. I don't think there is any massive benefit. However, there would be lots of benefit in your DD reading around her subjects, aiming especially at things related to whatever she would like to do at university. I'd just do that if I were her, and if she feels moved to write it up that's OK but not necessary. It would really help a lot if she plans to apply to any universities which might interview.

DD did an EPQ at her state school. She quite enjoyed it and got a decent grade, but I’m not sure it added much value and didn’t really factor in getting her uni place. The school also had to provide a lot of support to ensure the requirements were being met - as they are quite specific. I think she could add more with some other independent learning or extra curricula activities.

My eldest three DC did an EPQ. I don't think it helped with anything - either offers from universities or new skills.

DS did get a scholarship worth £1K for the first 3 years of his degree based on his A * EPQ.

DD3 is currently starting Year 13, and not doing an EPQ. Her school insists on an EPQ, but she got away with Further Maths instead. If the school had insisted we would have pushed for her to do a B-Tec instead. It was very noticeable that the teachers children all tended to do 3 A levels + B-Tec, rather than 3 + EPQ.

My daughter did an EPQ and there were pretty strict rules about them - the subject matter of the EPQ had to be unrelated to her A levels, so that is worth thinking about. I can't imagine that this was a rule just for her school (although it's possible!) but I would check this out as this really is an extra subject, not just an extension of what they are already studying ☺️

Depending on the exam board, your DD may well have an NEA component as part of her History A level; typically worth 20% of the total A level, it also is a mini-thesis and, unlike an EPQ, is meant to bind into the subject. My DC did Geog NEAs, really enjoyed doing them, got good marks for that component, which then boosted the overall grade for that subject. Your DD could channel her mini-thesis desires in that way perhaps?

It doesn't have to be. It has to be unrelated to the topics that are covered by her A level but could be a topic that she doesn't study but still be eg. a history based EPQ if doing history A Level.

Dd did one. Her uni choice dropped a grade if she got an A in the epq (she did, offer went from AAA to AAB)

I think they can be worthwhile, if the school offers them.
My DD did an 'artefact' EPQ (designing and building a robot). I think the process was useful (writing specification, costing etc) and then writing up and doing a presentation. And she could use the school DT and electronics kit .

But - if they'd not done an EPQ I think she would have done some sort of project by herself which would have been similar in terms of developing her practical skills and as CV/interview material.

Are there maybe some sorts of competition in your DDs area of interest?

EPQs also give UCAS points which is worth bearing in mind if their intended uni courses ask for points rather than specific grades.

Your DD would be able to check with any unis/courses she’s going to apply for and whether it’ll leverage a grade drop. They include it on the ‘entry requirements’ page of their websites.

The EPQ is a tonne of work, so I’d say that alongside A-levels it’s only worth it if it counts towards entry requirements. It’s not so much the actual essay/thesis that’s hard, but the slew of admin that has to be demonstrated alongside it. That was A LOT and even top students found that tough, and quite a few got Bs which doesn’t carry anywhere near as much weight. Top tip- with the admin/literature review, whatever else that I’ve blocked out, your DD should do 50% plus more than anyone would consider reasonable and that’ll be about right. It’s a mission and I’m getting stressed just remembering it!!! 😂

Contrary to @Bibbetybobbity, it seemed to me that it's worth doing if your DC sees it as an end in itself more than a means to an end.

Education is being devalued by being too much about a bit of paper or some points. Sure, in some cases it might let you drop a grade on an offer (but not on competitive courses) but that's really not the point of an EPQ.

It's 100% the only reason to do one.

Dd is very glad she did hers because she dropped an A level and did less well than predicted in her others when ds had a mental health crisis on one of her exam days but she managed to get onto the degree course she wanted without having to retake anything thanks to her doing the EPQ and getting a good grade in it.
She mostly enjoyed it too apart from rushing at the end to meet the deadline, and I am certain she gained from the experience.
Tbh it might be more useful to people who aren’t at brilliant schools that can be almost guaranteed to get them the grades they deserve. If your school is shit hot at A level teaching there may be less value than if something might go wrong and you might be grateful for a back up.

Vanishingly few unis take notice of the EPQ or the personal statement as was. It’s all about the grades. Especially in Russell group unis and for competitive courses. A levels are a ton of work, especially history where there is so much to learn and remember.

Two years ago we were in your position. I thought my daughter should do an EPQ to help her stand out. It was extra work and stress we didn’t need. She also did history and politics A levels which have a heavy essay content and history has an NEA which also takes work and discipline. The EPQ was a topic she was really interested in but as others have said the admin element steals any joy from the process.

When it came to uni applications, the unis she preferred for psychology made it clear 3 As at A level were all that mattered. If your DD is particularly interested in a subject then encourage independent reading and study without the EPQ. I couldn’t recommend it.

It's quite easy to check the entry requirements of unis you are interested in before you do it. Universities make it quite clear whether they drop a grade for an A in the EPQ. If none of the unis you want does, then don't bother!

Just to add.. getting a competitive advantage or hoping the uni will make a lower offer (few do) is 100% the only reason anyone would do an EPQ. Of course learning should be valued for its own sake but during A levels isn’t the time to try to demonstrate that.

Agree.

Also if you do one, ensure its done early in year 12.

DD did Spanish, History and English Literature A Levels. Her (state) school does offer EPQ but does it in year 13 which I think is too late and they should do it in year 12 instead. DD did start doing one but realised it was taking too much of her time and she didn't complete it.

I don't think any of the university offers she had would have been reduced with an EPQ and for DD getting 3 A* was probably better for her than potentially struggling with too many commitments.

DS did do one - he did an artefact one which I think he probably enjoyed but not sure it really added too much to his overall learning.

Have you looked into the practicalities of actually doing this?

Doing an EPQ requires both taught content and an assessor affiliated to an exam centre. It might be tricky even with an online option to fit this around full time school.

Due to the input required from multiple staff, this is also often pretty expensive- I believe you can be looking at £1000+ for the complete package.

The (state) school I teach at does offer EPQ, and a lot of students find it hard to juggle with their A-levels, and end up dropping it or not completing the project. If you've paid out a good chunk of money, your daughter will likely feel a lot of pressure to continue, even if she's struggling.

It really depends on. Dd and what she wants to do after A levels. As PP have said many unis don't count them but some do. Others will use it as "rounding" so if it's an academic EPQ that relates to the uni course they may be more likely to offer an interview eg Oxbridge or more likely to let you in if you drop a grade. It does require an awful lot of consistent work as points are awarded all along for the "process" ie it's not just write a wonderful essay but how did you do research, evaluate sources etc etc. So it can't be "crammed" and is therefore only suit students who will be diligent and do stuff all the way through the process.
I personally think it's helped my two (hpq and epq) as it's made them think about things and show them how to do research over an extended period. But their school is one where it's more or less mandatory...

Thanks so much for your help and advice. I am showing your replies to DD who is taking it all on board, and I really appreciate the view that three brilliant A levels and well thought-out side projects might be better than a very stressful EPQ. We're going to be researching university courses this weekend and try to work out their entry requirements and see where we get to.
I hadn't realised that so many important decisions had to be made so early on in KS4, so I have a lot of catching up to do 😱.
Thanks again we both really appreciate your help.