Which sixth form choice?

[SunblockSue]

It would be great to get some independent views on the choice of sixth form my son has to make.

He got a v good set of GCSE grades and now has the choice either stay at his current school to do A levels maths, further maths, physics and DT (product design). Maths is done in year 12 and FM in year 13. But you can drop FM if it is too much. He obviously knows this school and the teachers, but their results are not particularly stellar, but this could be due to the intake - they do really well on Btecs and have lower grade entry requirements.

The alternative school is much more academic does not do Btecs and has higher grades to be accepted. Its results are better. But they only allow you to start 3 A levels and have suggested Maths, further Maths and Physics as DT is very time consuming. Son wants to go into engineering so this school says these 3 a levels are perfect for that. It does feel quite narrow and he would be in a bit of a pickle of FM didn't work out.

I can see school B get really good results, very good uni destinations and clearly focused on 3 a levels to get the best results.

However his current school knows him, he likes it there but FM is always a fourth a level and that may be one too many a levels.

Which one would you pick?

What does he want to do after A Level? Engineering degree? Apprenticeship? Find out the entry requirements and make A Level choices accordingly.

FM is often a fourth A level (droppable) and doing it as one of only three does feel quite limiting. My child dropped it after the first year with some relief on their and the school’s side, although went on to do really well in Maths A level and I know other people who did badly in FM while acing Maths. So high risk to have it as a ‘main’ A level I think.

It is worth remembering that a school with higher A level outcomes may achieve that primarily because their intake is more selective ie the school's value added is not as great as might be supposed.

You/your son might have paraphrased the alternate school's rationale but M, FM, Phys are not 'perfect' for competitive engineering degrees, but perfectly acceptable if high grades achieved across the board.

You rightly surmise that, say, AAC (with C in FM) from the alternate school is far more limiting that, say, AAB (assuming FM is dropped at some point) at your son's current school.

Although you say your son's school is less impressive academically, you are lucky it has a sixth form and offers FM (on a 'let's at least give it a go' basis). You also have the benefit of continuity.

My DC went to a non-selective school and then its sixth form. Yes, average attainment was average and class sizes large but gave space for academically inclined students to press on.

Hopefully your son's current school is the same and it also sounds like they take practical subjects like DT seriously, which is not be underestimated.

@PerpetualOptimist you make some really good points. My gut is for him to stay at his current school and what you've said really resonates with me. Also there always a risk with going into the unknown.

In the end it will be his decision.

I’d say stay at current school.

my experience is out of date but certainly FM generally used to be seen as a bonus 4th a level for the bright, not a 3rd of 3. He could potentially drop that in y13 and still get a great set of alevels

I think the maths in Year 12, FM in Year 13 model puts a lot of stress on students - particularly if it's not a strong cohort. I would also worry that this was the reason for poorer results. What are the entry requirements for your son's potential subjects (this might help to prove/disprove this theory)?

I agree with the alternative that those are good choices for engineering. However, they are quite narrow choices if he changes his mind.

How strongly does he feel about DT? If he really loves the subject, then he should go somewhere that offers it.

FM is perfectly fine as a third A Level. It is certainly not any less highly regarded.

Ok that may be but the drop out rate is quite high is it not? Feels a bit of a risk

I would go with the school offering FM as one of four A levels, rather than three. Does the school allow a change to taking the Maths A level at the end of year 13 rather than year 12 if he decides early enough in the year not to continue with FM (some universities will want / prefer three A levels taken at the same time)? Not doing FM, if it comes to it, will exclude some universities for Engineering, but definitely not all. e.g. Sheffield lowering the offer for the other three if a certain grade achieved in AS or A level FM, but it's just an alternative pathway.

(I'm sure a million people will pop up to tell me it's rubbish, but I can't help thinking that the Maths / FM / Physics combo sounds like 'Maths, plus some different, okay, more difficult Maths, but still Maths, plus essentially Applied Maths'...).

Is it high because people try to do it as a 4th and find it too much?

My understanding, and there are far, far more learned people out there on this than me, is that it adds another layer to Maths and some people cope very well with the A level but just can’t ’get’ FM. This is only based on the sketchy explanation we got when our child totally flunked the end of year 12 FM and was advised to drop it. Weirdly it also echoed the experience of a boyfriend way way back when I was at school. He is now a science lecturer at an RG university so certainly wasn’t lacking brains.

@PerpetualOptimist@MarchingFrogs

Sorry both I cannot delete your tags!
I've done a bit of googling and just doing the 3 including further maths does not seem to limit any choices for engineering degrees as most ask for Maths and Physics.
Also the press release for the second school's A level results said 100% of pupils who did further maths got A star and A. Which is pretty amazing but might be because they turfed anyone who is not up to scratch off the course.
He is able to go to a day at school B next week so might make his mind up after that.

@SunblockSue It absolutely does not. You are correct. Do look at MEng courses. They are the best to choose if he wants to actually be an Engineer. It’s unfortunate he cannot do M,FM,P and Tech all together. It’s doable if you are talented! Tech is more applied and therefore helpful.

There are a handful of unis where they like 4 to include FM. It’s not that many and plenty of others will be fine with 3. He doesn’t necessarily need FM either but it will help with more competitive courses. If he wants engineering , look at engc.org.uk This is the Engineering Council and gives you an overview of many branches of engineering via the different institutions. Working out which branch of engineering DC like does help when choosing a degree.

I would look at which school gets best results. That’s the key to this. If he accepts 3 is fine, which gets better destinations and results? I think M and FM are usually taught over 2 years. Existing school seems out of line on that. My feeling is they could pull it if DC aren’t good enough in Y12. I think that’s a risk, There’s a risk in not doing FM as a 4th subject too: no fall back if it’s too difficult. So being great at maths will matter.