4th subject at A-levels

[anoukis]

Hi all, my DD who just got her GCSE results is considering changing her A-levels 4th subject selection from Further Maths to Physics. For university she is considering either something research related (biochemistry, biotech, biology, biomed, etc.) or medicine.

Her GCSE grades were as follows: 9 Bio, 9 Chem, 9 Physics, 8 Maths, and A in FSMQ Add Maths. She has already enrolled in the following subjects for A-levels:

1. Biology
2. Chemistry
3. Maths - Accelerated route, exam end of year 12 (NB. only those who scored A in Add Maths were allowed this route for Maths as there is a high curriculum overlap between A-level Maths and FSMQ Add Maths)
4. Further Maths

Her school says she can change from Further Maths to Physics before the 6th of September.

Pros and cons please? She does like both Maths and Physics so it's quite hard to decide. Which one would give her more flexibility and an advantage? We did look at the A-level specs for both and she said either is fine but is undecided.

Thanks.

If they do the maths in one year what do they do in the second year? Or is it year 12 maths and then year 13 FM? This would impact my decision I think.

Do you know how close she was to a 9 in maths?

It’s a difficult one but usually FM as a 4th is not as much added work load as a 4th separate subject.

3 sciences and maths will be a lot of work, particularly with accelerated maths.

If she's not sure about FM (and it doesn't sound like it would be specifically needed for her possible university choices) I'd suggest she just drops it and take 3 A Levels (with non-accelerated maths).

She was 2 marks off a 9 in GCSE Maths but we won't ask for a remark. It was paper 1 non-calculator where she got a lower mark.

The A-level Maths curriculum overlaps with FSMQ Add Maths where she got an A (highest grade as Add Maths is graded A-E) -- which is why the school offers Accelerated Maths to all students who achieved this. I believe FSMQ is a level 3 subject and it also gives UCAS points.

Further Maths is a 2-year subject, the same as all 3 sciences.

So once they’ve sat Maths at the end of year 12 and they’re happy with their result, what happens to those timetabled lessons in year 13? Extra frees to work independently on other subjects, or twice as many timetabled lessons for FM?

Will the accelerated maths class contain all the same students as in her FM class?

I’d be tempted to do FM rather than Physics.

Not sure how they timetable in year 13, but the Maths students are taught separately than Accelerated Maths students.

A-level Maths is a 2-year course, exam end of yr 13.
Accelerated A-level Maths is a 1-year course, exam end of yr 12.
A-level Further Maths is a 2-year course and very few students take it.

It's a small 6th form, about 100 students all in all. Maths and sciences have strong teachers and students have great results.

I'm sure the school knows what they are doing, but it sounds like they are disadvantaging students by making them complete A Level maths in a year. Unless my child was really naturally gifted in maths (which I'm assuming yours isn't or she wouldn't be thinking about dropping FM) I'd be quite keen on them not going this route, I think :)

Most universities will not be interested in the Additional maths, and particularly not if the student has A Level maths anyway, so the UCAS points are irrelevant.

Thanks. Only students who scored A in Add Maths are allowed/encouraged to take the accelerated route for A-level Maths. This is because of the curriculum overlap with A-level Maths. I guess it makes it easier to teach in 1 year?

FSMQ Add Maths OCR is a level 3 qualification. It was taught as an afterschool optional class in year 11 I think, and offered to only those with high maths predictions.

I'm none the wiser. My DD is off to Reading Festival so I guess we will decide next week :)

I suppose my concern with this set up is it sounds like they are timetabling maths as one subject but saying that due to the overlap with FSMQ you can do it in a year. This is very unusual. Normally doing it in a year means it takes up twice as many lessons as its timetables in two blocks - you do maths in year 12 and FM in year 13. Doing maths A-level in a year even for grade 8/9 students in only the same number of lessons as 2 year course will be tough.

I appreciate that’s not what you’re asking about; however, I would find out what happens to those lessons in year 13, and actually how many get grades they’re happy with at the end of year 12. Also can students who are not doing the A-level in a year still do FM? In which case you have students who are at different stages of the A-level course in the FM course, which can be hard to manage (I say all of this as a maths teacher!)

University offers are always in terms of 3 Alevels; so she needs to think about how to maximise her chances of 3 good grades. FM as a 4th may help her overall managed her workload and make it feel like she’s studying 3 subjects rather than adding a 4th.

People might be confusing Further Maths with Core Maths, which is usually done in a year and is less of a challenge.
Congratulations OP on such wonderful results! You must be very proud :) Your daughter is definitely capable of a 4th A-Level. I have taught students who went on to do medicine with 2 x science, Maths and a language, so I really don't think that choosing Physics or Further Maths will have any negative impact.
Sorry to have not offered better advice, but STEM isn't my field.

@usernamedifferent thanks for the questions, we will ask the school about the stats end of year 12.

Yes, students can take any of the following 3 routes when it comes to Maths:

1. only Maths (2-yr) or
2. both Maths (2-yr) and Further Maths (2-yr) or
3. both Maths (1-yr Accelerated) and Further Maths (2-yr)

All 3 subjects have minimum GCSE grade requirements for entry:

• Maths 7/8/9
• Further Maths 8/9
• Accelerated Maths: 8/9 Maths and A in Add Maths

My head hurts :)

The school my children were at tried the accelerated maths route one year.

The plan was that they'd do a level maths in a year and then further maths.

They timetabled it as if it were one a level.

They only allowed student with high marks in additional maths GCSEs (the old further) the take it.

22 children started. 1 person took the a level.

I would strongly warn against this route. The school changed their mind after the year my kids did it and never offered it that way again,

Talk to the school. Is this new? What's their track record?

It is possible to do this but even with further maths gcse the step up to a level is big. Very very few students can manage it in a year.

Both my kids dropped out of this route. My son dropped down to standard a level maths which left him with bio chem maths and my DD was more determined but dropped down at Easter to maths physics CS.

I’m not surprise your head hurts ! Too many options .

I agree with the pp. Maths in a year without double the number of lessons will be VERY hard even for the best mathematicians. I’d be interested to know how many get top grades and what they do in year 13.

If your daughter did pick physics she would then be doing 3 demanding science A-levels PLUS trying to do maths in a year on top of that. It makes no sense.

Thats why in your situation I would suggest FM as at least that’s not a whole new subject.

But really I’d be encouraging Maths in two years.

Yes there is some overlap with the FSMQ, but there is still an awful lot of extra content, particularly the mechanics and statistics elements. Whilst these students may find maths easy, they need time to do plenty of questions to really nail it. Starting the course in Sept and sitting the exams in June just doesn’t give that time.

But I appreciate that’s not what you came on here to ask!

Good luck whatever she decides

Thanks all. We'll book an appointment with the head of the 6th form to discuss, but at the moment it looks like Biology-Chemistry-Physics-Maths is a more sensible option (with Maths being regular over 2 years, not accelerated). Maths would be the "easy" one, given the overlap with Add Maths.

@noblegiraffe any thoughts on this as you seem very knowledgeable about A-levels Maths.

Thanks.

I’m very dubious about the ‘accelerated’ maths option as additional maths does cover some AS maths content but certainly nowhere near enough to justify knocking a year and a bit (because of the post-exam period of Y12 which is generally used to star teaching Y13 content) off the A-level course.

4 subjects normally includes further maths because if you are doing further maths (which is a full A-level with a heavy workload) then generally you will find A-level maths easier and not as much work as other A-levels.

Your DD’s selection assumes that maths will be an easier A-level because of the content already covered in additional maths. This will only be true in Y12. In Y13 the maths content will be entirely new to her, and difficult, requiring lots of work. She might find 4 manageable in Y12, but then struggle in Y13 because of this.

I wouldn’t underestimate the problems caused by taking 4. Other students will have lots of free periods during the day enabling them to do their work then, freeing up evenings for things like socialising, sports, part time jobs. She won’t have that space in her timetable so not only will she have more work to do, she will have to do it all in the evenings and weekends. It’s a lot and can be really stressful for those students. It can also mean that they get lower grades across their 4 A-levels than they would have got if they took 3.

Has she considered taking 3 and an EPQ rather than 4 A-levels?

Firstly, congratulations to her, what a smashing set of results!

Firstly, I would like to put in a word for advocating for just picking 3, and giving herself the time to do her very best in them. The 4th just carries risk, not reward.

It's important that she has time to study for all three subjects to do her best and hit the AAA she is clearly capable of, and to also do the extra-curriculars and other things that make her a well-rounded person ready to take on the challenges of a top university. Honestly, just carrying 3 "proper subjects" (we had to do General Studies as well, for reasons...) through to A level is probably one of the best bits of advice I was given. It allowed me to concentrate on getting the grades I needed, as well as improve in my sport and also have time to rest and socialise which I hadn't had during GCSEs as I'd been over-committed. I know a few people who risked the 4, needed AAA, and ended up with AABB and missing their grades because they gambled on the fourth. Some lost Oxbridge places because of it.

If she is insistent, given she's clearly a smart cookie, will they let her give both a try-out for a month and make a delayed decision? I would steer away from accelerated maths to be honest - maths really hots up at A level, and there's a reason why the content is spread over 2 years. There really is limited value in squishing it into less time and just puts pressure on getting the work done other subjects.