Physics at A level, but no Maths?

[Sybill]

DS is going into sixth form - on track for 7/8/9 across the board and is definitely planning on doing Biology and Geography for A level. From looking at entry requirements for some uni courses, it looks like an extra science subject would be helpful in keeping options open (he doesn’t know what he wants to do at uni yet but more likely to be science-y than humanity). Could do Chemistry but it’s a really tough A level and not sure if it’s his strongest. He does really well at Physics, always gets 8/9 and does enjoy it, but then he’d be doing it without Maths - that’s a really bad idea at A-level, right? He doesn’t like Maths enough to replace Bio or Geography with it. His current plan is either Psychology or Economics as a third, but that will knock out potential uni options that require 2 science subjects. Anyone done Physics without Maths, and it worked out ok? Will ask at school when he’s back, just want to think about it a bit first!

It's many years ago that I did Physics at A level but Maths was an absolute essential for it then. Physics is very maths-heavy. I went on to do a Physics degree and maths A level was a pre-requisite for that too, if he might want to take it further.

I would strongly encourage him to do Maths A level too as Physics is basically applied maths and is so much easier if he is already doing Maths.
IMHO workload of Physics A level alone = 1.3 A levels
but Physics and Maths = 2 A levels for workload of, say, 1.8
So it is much more efficient to do both (that might convince him!).

I did physics A level years ago, with no maths. I'd say the mechanics module was a bit tricky and I had to sit next to a friend who was really good at maths to help me a bit. However, I finished with a A in physics (no A* in those days) and overall it wasn't a massive problem.

For some unis, psychology is counted as a science I think.

It might be worth looking at a few courses at different unis and seeing if it does for the ones that he might be interested in.

I didn't think the GCSE results were out yet.

Psychology is a science for some unis. You don’t need maths to study it at uni but need to be confident enough to handle statistics.

You don’t need econ A-level to do it at uni but A-level maths is definitely preferred. I studied economics at uni and most of us had further maths too.

My dd studied biology at A-level and she said that not everyone did maths as well. Like psychology there’s some statistical stuff but it’s not as maths heavy as I imagine physics to be.

I did physics a level without maths in the 90s. It was difficult without maths, but I got a B in the end. If you do maths alongside quite a bit of the work overlaps which is helpful I think.
I'd say is doable but not desirable unless you're happy to put in quite a bit of extra work.

Are you suggesting that people shouldn't think about A levels until results day because my own dd used that method and it was carnage on the day as she chose between six A level combinations.

One of which was physics...without maths. And her sixth form college didn't allow it. If you wanted to do physics, you had to do maths. Which she didn't find out until results day in a college full of one thousand two hundred students all trying to sign up for A levels.

For those who did Physics years ago, it has changed a lot. They took calculus out about 10 years ago and broadened the syllabus massively (inevitably removing some depth).

Make no mistake, it is still a ‘hard’ A level, by some measures the hardest, but not in a mathematical sense.

So, I would say that, to do Physics, you have to really like Physics and Maths, especially the problem solving elements, but that does not mean that you have to do a Maths A level. The extra Maths, over and beyond GCSE is, off the top of my head, logs and exponentials and a deeper understanding of trig (a couple of simple trig identities and small angle approximations).

What a previous poster said about the two being a natural fit it true. But, on the other hand, for medics especially , the 3 sciences are a good combination.

But….you really have to like it, not choose it because you got an 8 at your GCSE. A level physics, whilst nothing like uni Physics, is still a step change up from GCSE Physics and, if you aren’t prepared to persevere when the going gets tough, you will come a cropper.

In my last year of teaching my best student, who got an A* on a tough paper, was a medic who wasn’t doing Maths, but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t naturally able at Maths; he definitely was. And he was prepared to work really hard.

It's a very long time ago but I did Physics without Maths and had no difficulty whatsoever getting an A (no A stars in those days.) Back then, the A level requirements for medical school were Chemistry and 2 out of Biology, Physics and Maths and there were loads of us who had done Biology Chemistry and Physics in my year.
However, I think things have changed quite a lot. For starters, the GCSE Maths syllabus that my children did was very different to mine. I wouldn't say easier or more difficult, but different. For example I did no statistics whatsoever but did do some calculus at O level and their's was the opposite. I think my O level Maths covered the majority of the Maths needed for my Physics A level, and the Maths that was new can't have been very hard to pick up as I didn't have any extra tuition or anything. I'm not sure that that is the case now.
Also, quite a lot has changed in Physics too. My kids joke that there was nothing smaller than an atom discovered when I was at school, that the Periodic Table consisted of Earth, Wind and Fire 😂. Not quite true, but there's no doubt that there have been huge advances over the last few decades and I think there's probably more Maths content in Physics now.
It's probably still not impossible, but I think it's likely to be harder than in my day and someone not doing Maths is probably at a disadvantage. At my DC's school they will allow it, but only if the student got a high grade at GCSE Maths and does Core Maths instead on an EPQ in lower 6th. Also, as others have said, if he decides he wants to continue down a Physics or Engineering route then Maths is going to be essential anyway.
Does he have any idea what he wants to do after school? If so, I'd look at typical requirements and work backwards.

@AgeingDoc ,

See my post above.

As someone who studied Physics in the Jurassic era but taught it until very recently, the syllabus has broadened immensely, but they have taken a lot of the Maths out (for the benefit of medics, I believe). They have also removed the choice.

So, for the naturally mathematical, I would say the current A level is far harder but some really poor mathematicians can still achieve a B by lots of knowledge (which wouldn’t have been possible in our day).

That's interesting @Newbutoldfather
I don't recall anyone batting an eyelid when I opted for Physics without Maths in the 80s and it wasn't uncommon. Nor do I remember there being any difficult Maths in my Physics A level. Well there can't have been because I'm not particularly mathematical and I found A level physics easy, if a bit boring. If there had been hard Maths I think I would have struggled. But these days suggestions of Physics without Maths seem to be almost universally met with horror so I had just assumed it had got harder.

The step up from gcse physics to a level is large. Its very maths based and much harder than chemistry in my opinion

I did physics without maths a-level and struggled.

however I hadn’t done GCSE maths but a similar qualification with a different syllabus and the two curricula didn’t dove tail well.

Up until this point I had never struggled with either maths or physics…

Does his school allow starting 4 then dropping down?? Might let you get the lie of the land.

If he is interested in biology and geography, he could do geology or environmental science a level for a science.

I would have thought psychology would be fine with Biology.

Unless he wants to do engineering

Engineering usually means maths and further maths…

I was going to see pretty much exactly this.

Will his school let him do A level Physics without Maths? Some don't.

Dd did a physics and maths A level
She wouldn’t advise doing physics A level without maths.

Massive thanks all, really helpful perspectives and experience. Might see if he can pin down someone from physics dept to chat about it at results day.
He’s really unsure about what he wants to do but unlikely to go down the engineering route I think (I’m an engineer, and did physics and maths but am not from the UK so it was all a bit different). We’ve had a look at lots of different courses at different unis and some treat both geography and psychology as science subjects for some courses, but it’s a mixed bag. His school do 3 a-levels and an EPQ from Sept as standard so no room on the timetable for a 4th a level unless it’s FM or another language. Will see what his results show next week i think

He says he thinks they might, as he knows someone whose brother apparently did it a couple of years ago but I suspect it’s strongly discouraged (especially judging from the feedback here)

This is especially helpful thank you - he said the sixth formers that he spoke to about physics said it was pretty easy, compared to chemistry, but I suspect that’s because they were doing Maths (and probably FM) too!!

DC3 is doing physics A level without maths. She is finding it doable with some assistance from DC2 who is doing physics at uni. It's probably the subject she is doing best in. We are aware that if she wants to do physics at Uni she will need to do a foundation year, but that is actually ideal for her due to her disability. However I think she is the only one in her physics class who isn't doing maths.

IIRC one lad in DS2's cohort a few years ago took physics without maths - it wasn't advised but was possible. I think it was deffo harder so it might be worth a reconsider. It's a bit odd that he likes physics so much without liking maths isn't it - like enjoying PE GCSE but not biology?

I wanted to say tho, that many unis regard both geography and psychology as sciences, especially if they are looking for a second science. Loughborough (where DS is doing a biology-related degree) for example. Birmingham as well. And loads of others I am sure.

<reads thread> Ah I see you say this @Sybill - interesting that you say it's a mixed bag. Which unis don't accept these two as sciences? Warwick does as well and so does Leeds.