Is school over PAN?

[Barneyboo01]

Hi ,you are the best people to advise me.

If a secondary school has added an extra 12 places to there admissions for a large cohort year, is this there PAN? Officially?
The LA has informed us at a group session appeal hearing, due to large numbers, the school has added extra spaces for one year only.
Any help please .

It's not their PAN if it is a one year only exceptional circumstance type thing. Their PAN will remain whatever it was they published for this year, which will remain the PAN for next year.

Yes as pp says, this will not permanently increase PAN. There is a separate process which would need following for any permanent increase, I think usually involving a community consultation on the proposal.

They could theoretically add extra places temporarily again next year if the demand is there and the school can meet a request from the LA, but it’s crystal ball whether they would.

redskydarknight thank you.
So they don't have to reach the extra number, even though the have released the spaces? I don't understand why they would open up 12 extra spaces if not to allow more children in.
I am aware of argument over prejudice of resources and overcrowding. But why dangle the carrot to be snatched away?
Your thoughts would be helpful.

So I'm guessing that your situation is that you have appealed and had your appeal turned down, when the school is at their PAN but not at PAN+12?

So I am not an admissions expert (and hopefully one of those might answer) but it sounds like the LEA/school has said that they could go up to 12 additional places, if appeals stack up - not that there are 12 additional places.

If it was the case that 12 additional places were available then they would be offered to the top 12 students on the school waiting list - not just to those who had appealed.

What I think is possible is that, after the initial allocations round, the LA has found there is a shortfall of places locally and has negotiated with schools to find out the best way of accommodating the number of applicants they have to deal with, and that in the appeals process the school has made the case that they can - as a one-off "bulge" - accommodate 12 appellants, and the panel has agreed with this. Or simply that the panel has found that the school's case not to admit is not strong enough, and have assessed that they can accommodate 12 more that year, but it is that year only not a permanent increase to the size of the school.

If there were more than 12 appellants, then those with the strongest cases will be the ones who get those places.

Of the appellants, the 12 who succeed will then relinquish their places at other schools, and (if it is a case of too many local prospective pupils) those vacancies at other schools will allow offers to be made to those who currently have no offer at all.

@prh47bridge - any views?

It sounds like they have admitted over PAN (or, at the very least, have told the LA that they are able to do so). This is allowed under the Admissions Code and does not increase PAN - that remains at the original number.

If they have not filled all those additional places, it would be hard for them to argue at appeal that filling them will cause prejudice. As @meditrina says, it would then be up to the appeal panel to decide which appellants had the strongest cases. From your second post, it sounds like this is the situation.

On the other hand, if they have filled them all it allows them to make the case that they are already over PAN and therefore don't have space for any more pupils.

meditrina prh47bridge thank you both for information.
Yes we were rejected at second mid year appeal for Y8, only case to be heard.
After last year's appeal they were at 176, at this year's appeal they were at 178, but only just recently.
We had the usual rejection on prejudice on resources etc.
We mentioned the two spaces just given, that leaves two spaces left. I understand why the two spaces were given, different reasons, that's fine.
I am trying to understand with the two extra spaces available, why they think it would cause more prejudice, when they have just released two, a few weeks before our appeal.

According to admissions our case was strong. They are still presently at 178. If the LA and school said yes to extra 12 places, then they have admitted they can accommodate this without prejudice.

FAP and criteria etc aside for a moment, a child whether they have characteristics or not, is still a number in the classroom surely. If they didn't cause prejudice on resources etc, why would a third?. I know they have to by law give spaces to children in need, completely agree.
Just wandering how my question would fair up if I put it to the LA. The decision is final from the panel, I get that. I have read about maladministration and can't appeal again unless change in circumstances.
I just don't understand why the extra 12 spaces aren't as legally binding as the PAN number.
I am going crazy with it all, any help to make me see the sense of it would be appreciated.

What may have happened is that the LA was short of places and schools had pressure put upon them to offer extra to ensure that all Y7 applicants had an offer. A carrot (eg addditional classrooms) may have been offered but would not be in place for at least 18 months, often longer. The school may have 'agreed' but there was still prejudice. I have been on panels for a number of schools (in different LA's) where the school has agreed that they will offer the extra places but due to the prejudice, it was on the understanding that as numbers dropped they did not offer any places until below the original PAN.

If the LA and school said yes to extra 12 places, then they have admitted they can accommodate this without prejudice.

No, they haven't - the argument will be that there is prejudice, but it was outweighed at the beginning by the need to ensure all children get a place.

A school offering over PAN is normally because the LA ask them to, to ensure all local children get offered a space, and the assumption is that they drop back down through rejections. Schools near me do this regularly as around 25% of secondary pupils here go private or to out of county grammars, but many also apply to their local school too, so there is a generally reliable rate of over application and subsequent dropoff. Most schools get back to around PAN by Christmas of Year 7.

The school obviously have to take them all if that doesn't happen, but that isn't to say there wouldn't be prejudice to take them all if they have to - more that the school has decided originally that the potential prejudice to a child of not having a space at all outweighs the prejudice to the school of another pupil.

That doesn't mean the prejudice to another child in an appeal situation outweighs the prejudice to the school. That would be up to the panel to decide.

Appealpanelist all this information is helpful, thanks.
Yes the LA have said numerous times, the school wants to get down to original PAN, so as a result there is no waiting list, as 12 children are not going to leave in a year group.
Is maybe a reason they are not fully filling the above PAN number is to keep to places available for throughout the year? ( transfers, FAP etc )
I read in a draft admission policy, " All admissions authority including own admissions authority are reminded that they MUST fill vacancies in any year group,where the number on roll is below their published admission PAN number, irrespective of their admissions criteria."
Hence why I am inquiring on the difference why extra 12 is not classified as Admissions PAN.
I know it was added as extra, on the LA information provided for allocations it put in the 168 as PAN, 180-12 as allocated.
It's a minefield to navigate!!!

A PAN, here 168, is an officially agreed number, set before applications are made, and should be published on the school website in advance of applications.

An academy can choose to over offer, as this one has done, without officially changing PAN. So PAN here has not changed for this year group and as such they have no legal obligation to fill up to the 180, either in Year 7 or any other year. That's just something they are allowed to do.

(Technically Year 8 doesn't have a PAN, only regular years of admission do, but that's a side point. The key is that the school doesn't have to admit into year 8 until the number goes back down below the initial 168 PAN for year 7).

I don't know if this is the same but we had this when Ukrainian refugees joined our school. The disbenefit to the cohort of going over PAN is acknowledged. The fact the places are only temporary is a significant mitigation that makes it acceptable to place them there in the first place.

It's not "now they've taken them over PAN they've proved it's fine". There will be impacts with students having to work off clipboards instead of desks etc. That might be be deemed temporarily acceptable in Y7, but they'll be relying on natural wastage to hopefully make sure every child has a desk, enough science equipment etc by the time they are studying for their GCSEs.

Molga yes I totally understand that. Therefore prejudice on resources.
Question really was about about PAN description and whether the new admission number was as binding as original number.
The school will never in that year group get back to original number. They even told us in the group panel hearing they were considering a whole new class of 28/30. There was no time for correct procedure to put this through revelent authorities. So that tells me the school could have enough resources.
Something is just nagging in the pit of my stomach about it all.
Thank you though for commenting.

I think it’s not unusual to increasing the PAN for a single year group. Admissions have an idea of what’s coming up in the future as well, how many children already in primary etc.
I worked in a school that increased the PAN because they knew a new school was being built so a deal was made to cover that temporary shortfall. Knowing the numbers going forward would be slightly lower probably so covered how many students were in the school overall in the future.

The pan remains the original number at application. If extra are taken for a particular year group, pan doesn't increase (it is like a school agreed prior to appeals to take the next 12 in the criteria - but like with appeals, natural wastage means they don't have a space to fill, until below the original pan. In some areas, 12 children leaving is not unrealistic before year 10, when pressure on popular GCSE subjects can mean children are disappointed.

DC's school took on 120 extra children for about 5 months (while the new building they were meant to be in wasn't actually quite ready ...)

It was an absolute nightmare. doing it once is absolutely not an indication that the school could cope with that sort of number.

I suspect the same sort of thing might be true in your case. I also don't know how you can be so sure the year group will never get back to its correct number.

@Barneyboo01 here is a link to the admissions code, which will answer your questions: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60ebfeb08fa8f50c76838685/School_admissions_code_2021.pdf

PAN means "Published Admissions Number". See sections 1.2 - 1.5. It is the number of places set out in their policy, and is determined around 18 months in advance.

Clause 1.4 explains the circumstance under which they can admit above PAN.

PAN applies to the year of entry, which I’m presuming in your case means Yr. 7 (I know of schools with PANs for Yr. 7 & 9 but that is unusual - part day and part boarding). You mention an appeal for an in-year place for Yr. 8, so presumably your child is due to start Yr. 9 in September. Is your child in school? Why do you want to move them?

redskydarknight
" suspect the same sort of thing might be true in your case. I also don't know how you can be so sure the year group will never get back to its correct number."

This school in particular is quite sort after for various reasons, last year the waiting list was at 96. We have had 6000 homes built locally in the last five years, 1800 wrapped around two schools. The admissions authority were honest in saying they would not get the year back down to original PAN.

LadyLapsang ,no this was for year 8 admission. Various personal reasons for trying to move ,yes in a school at the moment 9miles away.

tristeez Thank you for information
Think I have read through this previously, in the beginning. Will have another look through with wider eyes...thanks.

Hi, So did you submit an on-time application for this school for Year 7 to start in September 23, got offered another school 9 miles away, (did you list any nearer schools?) and now are trying again for Year 8 from September 24? Or, have you moved home since you submitted the secondary application?

Schools may be less likely to offer over PAN in the future, for example so a LA can make offers to all applicants on NOD where they know historically lots of parents reject places to enter fee paying schools, if months later it results in people trying to push them to take more in-year applicants when they have already behaved collegiately by admitting over PAN.

LadyLapsang yes we put in time application in for year 7.
All 3 preferences were declined. Because of the high cohort intake, even though we were in the catchment area, we were not in admissions area for two schools,we were for the third, three houses down got the last placement.

Appealed for all three, offered school that was in special measures and very rough. This school in particular still had 32 places available as no one wants to go there, so that is the LA use it as last resort.

The only school left with good ofsted reports was the one 9miles away.
Felt this was our only option for him to start his education. We discussed home schooling, but husband works full-time and I have auto immune disease, which means some days I can't move and in considerable pain.

Hi, I’m new to mumsnet and don’t really know how it works. I’m looking for some advice regarding a secondary school appeal. @Appealpanelist would you be able to give provide me with some information, if so how do I private message or shall I start a new post? Thanks :)

@ForLilacSheep Please start a new post with details of your situation. . There are a number of us who sit on appeal panels and offer advice.