Bias against independent schools getting into Uni

[Thegirlisnotright]

Is there a bias against independent schools when it comes to university entrance? Any insights appreciated.

What makes you think there is?

Private school students are overrepresented at top unis. I can’t think what makes you believe there’s a bias against them.

Some universities have contextualised offers and schemes to encourage students who are likely to be a non- independent school profile to attend.
It's a complex area, our son attends a private school, however is likely to go to a local authority sixth form. We live in an area of socio-economic deprivation so can apply for a contextualised offer allowing him to 'drop a grade' on the usual entry requirements. The sixth form is not selective, but to be frank, pulls from an affluent area geographically, there are poor transport links to it from where we live. Many private schools feed into it and gets great results.

Contextualised offer for uni not 6th form to clarify.

Short answer is yes, lots of bright kids jump ship and go to state 6th form for this reason. If you look at top 5 universities social inclusion index (published in the times newspaper but you need a subscription to read it) then less than half are from private or grammar with majority coming from state In most cases. It’s interesting reading.

You are aware I hope that contextual offers where a lower A level grade is required are only available to certain postcodes - so far from most state schools? And AFAIK it's where you took your GCSEs that matters too.

Less than half of the uni cohort is from private or grammar - well since the vast vast majority of DC go to state comprehensive that's hardly a bias against private schools is it?

University is sadly increasingly becoming a privilege accorded to the wealthy - the costs of living away and the low level of student loan coupled with the low threshold (ridiculously low IMHO) to get the minimum loan only have helped there.

The location of a sixth form can also create a bias which favours the more affluent even if it's a state sixth form. The one I'm thinking of naturally draws from a region in which most houses are 600-700k +.
Their bus routes don't come to where we live which as a parent creates a bias in choosing it. It gets great results and and is one of the best in the country for Oxbridge admissions. So in a way there is a positive bias for affluent families whether at private school or not.

Huh? With only 7% of the population attending private schools, and 5% at state grammars it's hardly a big surprise that the majority of students at Universities are from the other 88% of the population is it? Even allowing for the fact that you would expect children from selective schools to be over represented to some degree this sounds like anything but bias against this group.
Contextualised offers and Widening Participation schemes in general have slightly reduced the advantage of independently educated pupils when it comes to University entrance but it is a huge leap to go from that to the idea that private school pupils are discriminated against. The playing field has had maybe one pass of a very light roller, but it's nowhere near level.

Yes, private sch kids are overrepresented at uni, but in terms of a bias against them there can be.

So if a private school child & a comprehensive school child are otherwise equal, many unis will prefer the state comp child as it does better for their figures.

However, private schools tend to give more coaching for interviews, personal statements & can be easier to get those top grades in anyway (not diminishing the hard work the private sch kids put in to get them!), so depends why you're asking.

Just pointing out it can both be true that private sch kids are overrepresented & there is a bias. Because private sch kids tend to average much better results & proportionally to the results they get, are discriminated against for their schools.

Food for thought!

The playing field has had maybe one pass of a very light roller, but it's nowhere near level.

I love this @MrsAvocet what a way with words :) (obvs I don't love the fact, but how you expressed it!)

No. Hth.

No.

This is a goady thread IMO, no one sensible actually thinks private school kids are struggling to gain entry to HE.

There isn't a bias against them, not at all.

There is a conscious effort to make sure that the bias towards them doesn't inadvertently prevent less advantaged children from getting places at top universities.

If a university is the type that generally makes AAA offers then the simple fact is that a very significant number of these grades come from students at private schools. Although only 7% of children are in private schools, 17% those taking A levels are in private. Within that, about 48% of A level results are at grade A or better in private schools compared to about 23% in state schools (with variations according to whether the state is a grammar, a comprehensive, an academy etc) so once all the numbers are crunched, you would expect a top university to have around 30-40% of its students coming from the private sector with no bias at all either way.

What universities are trying to do is take into account that it's a lot harder to get top grades in some state schools. If you were to take two students of exactly equal intelligence and potential, and put one in a nurturing and studious private school with loads of extra support available, and the other in a hugely underfunded comp in a challenging area, the chances are that the 2nd will get a lower grade than the first. So universities will give contextual offers where they accept a B grade from a student who got that B grade in extremely challenging circumstances, where a student who didn't have those circumstances would still be required to achieve an A.

That's not bias, and any family withdrawing their children from a private school to send them to a state for sixth form to try to game this will not gain any advantage thereby.

Honestly wasn’t trying to goad anyone. Was a bit of a debate I was having with someone recently whose children are at a private school.

Are they a bit thick, your friends?

My son is at an independent school and I attended an independent school, though as a free school meals pupil and on a full bursary because we had very little money. Having been on both sides of the fence I would say it's fine to talk about biases within education and I don't think it makes people thick. There are lots of kind and decent people who happen to be well off and lots of parents from working class backgrounds like me who have worked hard to earn money and who benefited from the old assisted place scheme.

Having been on both sides of the fence I would say it's fine to talk about biases within education and I don't think it makes people thick

I'm assuming the pp meant are the friends a bit thick for thinking private school is a disadvantage to getting into university. Not for wanting to talk about it.

My DD's friend at our local sixth form college had an Oxford interview online and she didn't have a laptop so she had to check one out of the sixth form library on the day and not a single one of them worked. I can't see that happening in a private school. There would be a tutor overseeing that the practicalities of interviews were taken care of.

Hear what you're saying Savoy Cabbage and it's an interesting point about the laptop. I worked in an 'outstanding' secondary where a pupil whose writing was very difficult to read (SEND) was unable to use a laptop because the network was so patchy. My son has the same issue, however the network at the private school he attends is good so he is making progress. I did push for the secondary pupil and said to my line manager that I felt that he was falling through the gaps, he moved school so I'm not sure what happened.

Well jumping from private to state for 6th form is definitely a thing and I know lots of parents doing/intending to do it - Whether you argue it’s a genuine bias or a perceived bias

Universities need to consider potential as much as A level results though. The LSE did some analysis years ago of their students and found state school educated students got the same degree outcomes with one grade lower in their A Levels than privately educated. So where a private student might get an offer conditional on AAA, a state student could a get BBB offer and both would be expected to achieve the same degree result. That’s obviously not discrimination, that’s just fairness and equal opportunity. I’ve no idea what their current offer conditions are BTW as that was several years ago that I heard about that policy.

Attending a state school doesn't automatically get someone a lower offer. There's a comp near me that doesn't attract contextual offers from say Bristol because the grades are quite good. It has more higher attaining students on entry than many comps do. Warwick for example looks at postcode. I think unis look at where you did GCSEs too. Warwick does.

Jumping from private to state seems like an utterly stupid thing to do.

"Oh I took my kid out of their private school and put them in a state sixth form to beat the system that would prioritise the state school kid, but now my child doesn't have a teacher for their A-level so they're teaching themselves, the school facilities are shit and they don't have any Oxbridge entrance preparation classes".

Bristol makes contextual offers to people who attend schools that get A level results in the bottom 40% of the country.

Obviously people are free to move their kids from private to a state school with A level results in the bottom 40% if they think it'll give their kid an advantage. My dc have attended one. One missed an A level teacher due to the school struggling to recruit a French teacher. One had a sub teaching economics who didn't have an economics qualification. Might be worth a try though.

From what I’ve read independent and grammar schools are equal in the eyes of university entrance so not all state schools are equal in the eyes of admission authorities.
deprived areas, it’s more detailed than simply the area, there’s a link where you can look it up based on your address. Not all of Lambeth or Brixton is considered deprived, literally house by house.

Not utterly stupid if the aim is to save money. But yes, utterly stupid if they don't realise that universities also look at where the GCSEs were taken.