Graveney - worth a try?

[AaWw]

We are living around Wimbledon (still in Wandsworth borough though). It took us almost an hour to Graveney open event last week, but DS really liked the school. As we are not in Graveney's catchment area, we can only hope for the 70 grammar places. Do you think it worth a try? Thank you.

I'm not sure I understand the question.

If it's: 'does my child stand a chance of getting a test place?' then your address is not relevant, a (very) few kids attend Graveney from North London even. The highest test scorers get in regardless of home address. Getting a test place is probably about as difficult as getting a place at a regular (not super-selective) grammar school, very roughly.

If your question is whether the school is worth an hour's journey, then difficult to say. Boring answer but I'd say if your local options are terrible then 'probably', if they're good then 'no', if they're mediocre then 'it's probably borderline'.

I don’t think an hour is an unusual journey in London for secondary school. You could try the test, not much to lose.

you need to get around 96% on the test papers. competition is fierce.

Is that I will have the score before handing in CAF?

https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/about-the-year-6-test/

Results
If your child takes the test in September, you will be notified by email of your child's test results on or before 23 October 2024.

No OP I mean if you get some practice papers. That’s the level you need to get to, to get into the grammar stream.

DD got in via the wandsworth test. Hard to say what your child’s chances are without further info. Keep in mind it’s probably enough to be in top 150’or so of the test as there will be overlap between top scorers and those who get into other grammar schools and rank those higher.

DD did not clear the first round of the Tiffin test but did get Graveney without prep. It’s not the same as getting into superselective grammar as a school like Tiffin would require far more exam prep for vocab / Maths etc. Wandsworth test is just reasoning and if your child is very good at that, it should certainly require less prep than Wilsons / Tiffin.

DD has a CAT score of 139 and just about got into Graveney (was on the waiting list for a couple of weeks but was offered shortly after), did not do tutoring. So I imagine anyone with CAT score 130+ and some prep has a good chance.

This company makes the wandsworth test.

https://11plus.gl-assessment.co.uk/

139 CAT score is exceptional. It puts you in the top 2 or 3% of the country in terms of IQ.

OP you'd need verbal and non verbal.

DD did not clear the first round of the Tiffin test but did get Graveney without prep.

By without prep do you mean zero practice or familiarisation with non verbal reasoning? Did they encounter this at school or with any bond books or practice papers?

Our DC also got in and has a similar CAT score range

I want to know more about this too

@PiffleWiffleWoozle good point, they were familiar with VR/NVR tests (and obviously the CAT test) from school so definitely not in the "never seen a reasoning test" category. So I am not claiming no prep whatsoever. What I mean is no targeted prep, no external tutors and no specific VR/NVR practice at home - as plan A was private schools that happened to do Maths/English only.

So if someone is not familiar at all I would certainly recommend doing VR/NVR workbooks (her school did CGP books I think), my point was rather that I think for a child who finds reasoning tests easy/fun, the preparation required to make the cut at Graveney is probably considerably lower than to pass superselective grammars that would probably require serious targeted practice for anyone.

it's hard to compare.

that relatively rare child who's the flat out brightest in their primary school class (or, especially, their year, if there's a multi form intake), provided they've been paying enough attention in class to be strong in the fundaments of literacy and numeracy, will usually be able to get WT scores of around 130 or so per paper, maybe a little better or worse, without having ever clapped eyes on a VR or NVR test. i suppose I probably only think that the difference between the best and worst possible prep for those kinds of tests (short of kids turning up for a test tired or hungry or whatever, which of course does happen) can only be worth, what, not all much more than a dozen points?

but even the brightest child across a number of schools, in a whole town or whatever, wouldn't be able to pass a grammar school test without prep, certainly not the maths bit, there'd just be too much unfamiliar content. a really, really bright kid who was also a really avid reader would probably be able to have a good go at the English bit without any prep.

i think for an only very moderately bright but exceptionally well prepped kid the GS test might be easier, other than perhaps for the very most super selective schools with the very highest pass marks. but in the main I'd say that the WT is easier, though I certainly do know kids who didn't pass WT but did get a Sutton grammar place.

I think VR it’s possible to get a reasonable score unprepped but not so much with NVR if you’ve never seen it before as it’s so unlike anything state schools teach.

DD had average CAT of 130 and was a fair way off a Graveney selective place on her Wandsworth test scores . We didn’t prep for the Wandsworth test specifically but she had done a fair bit of VR and NVR by then.

Conevrse, she got places at all the selective private schools we applied to, including very academic ones

I think a lot of people prepare very specifically for the Wandsworth test for 2+ years beforehand. You won’t get a place without a lot of specific prep. It’s not just familiarity with VR and NVR but also things like speed, how long on each question, do you guess or leave blank, etc

I agree with this and I'm afraid even with a CAT of 130 - that's exceptionally high - but it's the ones at 139, 140 are going to just 'see' those patterns without having to think too hard or prep too much. They'll be able to twist and rotate and find things in patterns that other people just don't see and also under time pressure.

Most people not at this level will need to prep prep prep. And some people can do the NVR and can't do the VR and some can do the VR but not the NVR.

So it's not so easy after all, depending on your strengths/weaknesses. Download some papers, some of them are free, set yourself a timer and have a go yourself as a parent. It's tough. You really have to concentrate HARD and keep at it and it's a lot for the one hour or so you're doing it. Then straight onto the next paper.

Both DC nearly identical CATs of >130. One passed WT (ie got Graveney place) with generalised prep but - with no specific prep - narrowly failed SET; the other - who had the marginally higher average CAT - had no specific WT practice and didn't reach Graveney mark but did get grammar, with some prep for SET by taking a couple of mocks. So you can see it as a bit random but it does seem like really specific prep may help take the randomness out of it...

The CATS aren't just NVR and VR though are they? They also include maths and spatial. Those with high spatial and NVR and VR are going to do well at Graveney. High maths isn't needed for Graveney so if you're higher in that bracket and have a higher CAT as a result, then it won't help with Graveney.

And for SETS you have the English element which is a whole different kettle of fish. I'm not sure any of it can be compared.

But I'm happy to be wrong :)

@AppleStruddle123no obvious link between CAT profiles and performance on different test types in our case. So test familiarity might be a differentiator - or it might just be chance/luck on the day. For those set on a particular school or test type, maybe make your practice as specific as possible. If you're not too fussed then, maybe, keep it more general?

Getting a test place is probably about as difficult as getting a place at a regular (not super-selective) grammar school, very roughly.

But Graveney is super-selective in that the selective places are not based on distance and go to the top scorers. In a ‘normal grammar’ in a grammar area, with distance criteria, it is a matter of passing the 11+.

The test may not make demands on the same breadth of knowledge and prep as, say, Tiffin, but the competition from families from miles around who find the journey more accessible that to the Sutton grammars (for example) is very very intense.

Anecdotal I know but a friend’s son sat the WT with zero VR/NVRprep (parents don’t believe in prepping for exams) and sailed into the Graveney extension stream. He currently attends a bog standard Tooting state primary. So it is possible without prep.

Got WT result two days ago .... we are just below the lowest admission scores as listed on Council's website (it's 239 for 2023, and even higher for the previous years). Not sure if it's still worth to have a try. :(

@AaWw it can't hurt to try, you never know. Previous years had higher birth rate, so perhaps your dc still has a chance.

Just a quick question: is it matter for the sequence of choices of school? I mean if you are in the top 70 for WT, does it mean you need to put Graveney as 1st choice? Will those putting Graveney in higher choices get the places even they scored lower in WT?

Sorry I know it's the deadline today but I am a bit confused in making my final decision. Many thanks!

I think so