Grammar school with dyslexia

[kezzykicks]

My ds is in year 4 so am starting to look ahead at possible secondaries.

He has said he wants to go to the local grammar (a couple of friends' brothers go) and he is academic and very interested in leaning, I think it would be a really good fit for him if he was accepted.

He does have dyslexia, he has a diagnosis and he finds some things trickier than others, eg, his spelling is awful and when he was diagnosed he was identified as having some issues with processing and needing extra thinking time.

He has developed strategies to deal with it and is exceeding at school but finds it tiring. I'm wondering if anyone has any experience of a dyslexic child in grammar - were any provisions offered for the 11+ exam and has the child coped with the demands of the school? Thanks

*what, not why.

@Persimonne72 but this is why it's so important for OP to look at her specific grammar though. That's what I've been saying the whole time..
If you think 1 PX and 3 suspensions is a lot, I have news for you. That is very very low in comparison to what's happening in comps, who also have a reputation to uphold. Many schools are not suspending for things that used to be immediate suspensions or even PX. Yet still, suspension and PX rates are going up and up.
I agree with you that there is less likely to be high levels of pastoral care, but most pastoral care at comps is taken up by the most needy atm, same with SEND support. It's very unlikely that a bright but dyslexic child would receive any support tbh. It's much more likely they'd receive support at a grammar, as pp have already said.
There are pros and cons to both options, and neither is perfect but the stats you're showing, in my view, would only sway me further into trying for grammar.

Yes, definitely I agree @Foxesandsquirrels with selecting the right grammar but the important factor is if she does have a choice at all.

As I mentioned, grammar schools are very unlikely to give suspension because the reasons I already stated. And the no of suspensions at that particular school doesn't differ much from most of the comprehensives with great GCSE results around where I live.
It's very unlikely that a bright but dyslexic child would receive any support tbh

There are so many dyslexic kids in comprehensive schools that the kids have dedicated group sessions

I would try if it is "softer" county grammar.

@Persimonne72 I think we can agree to disagree. From my experience, a child who's dyslexia is mild enough to have a chance at a grammar, is unlikely to get any SEND support at a comp. They will benefit from teachers who overall have much more experience in SEND, but kids like OPs are most often the ones to fall through the net and underachieve. They're not likely to get into any radar and their dyslexia will be seen as very superficial in comparison to other SEND most comps deal with.

I think you have a very weird view of suspensions and PX in comps tbh. The good ones are also wary of the reputation they need to uphold. It is scary what kids are not getting suspended for tbh. A boy in the school I visit came to school with a knife and didn't get suspended. He was a y7 wanting to show off. This is a very good comp. all of them under immense pressure from Ofsted to keep suspensions and PX low. Schools have to show what measures they're taking to address behaviour and are having to jump through hoops to keep these rates low. So the fact they're still so high, speaks volumes. Grammars aren't immune to behaviour issues and one that has 0 suspensions would actually be a red flag for me.

The only thing I agree with you on is that grammars do tend to have less pastoral care as their budgets are usually much smaller. The issues with overachievers, eating disorders, competitiveness etc are also seen in the sought after 'leafy' comps. Anyway, it proves my point really that yout child is unlikely to get much 'extra' unless they're one of the extremes- very high needs or very high attainer. So if OP can get her child into a grammar, I think she should as I do think they'd get more support. Unless they have access to a good comp with very low SEN levels. This is just my experience.

is unlikely to get any SEND support at a comp.

I cannot speak for all schools as it varies. But in the state schools I know they have group sessions that include: Use of personalised dictionaries that the kids create. Encouraging pupils to take risks with their spelling, suggesting that they underline these words. Teaching the spelling of keywords in a multi-sensory way etc.
Also if there are quite a few kids with dyslexia they put them in the appropriate Set for English, where there is the right support.

here is some data about exclusions and suspensions from last year
https://explore-education-statistics.service.gov.uk/find-statistics/suspensions-and-permanent-exclusions-in-england

That really varies per region. There is quite a lot of it North West and what is interesting the suspensions are higher in autumn than e.g spring or summer

@Persimonne72 yes, most schools have this and the kids that go to those are likely to be very low or low attainers, or just behind.The OPs child, if they have dyslexia mild enough to even consider grammar, are very very unlikely to ever attend sessions like this. Their need for support will be accessing high level content. The support needing to be given in a dyslexia friendly way. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's very unlikely to happen in a comp. They're far more likely to just be plonked in a low middle or middle set.

I really don't know if you mean to, but you're being very patronising. I visit schools as a dyslexia teacher. I have a good idea of what's on offer. I also know where to find stats on suspensions lol.

I think that you have to go and talk to the SENCO at the schools you are looking at. As an example, my boys' grammar has (limited) support available for dyslexia; my daughter's grammar head said "we don't have any special needs children here due to the rigours of the curriculum"....🙄Obviously, there will have been dyslexic children in the girls' grammar, but there was very little support available.

I think you should relax. I have no idea who I talk with and what you do as a job. I just sent you data so you can have a look without knowing if you looked at it before. Take it easy EOT

I made is clear in my earlier posts that I'm aware of suspension rates, and that I'm speaking from experience when I say SEN support at comps is for the most in need, and OPs child is unlikely to meet that threshold. You continued to post in a patronising way, linking where I can find suspension rates and explaining what provision looks like. Did you assume I plucked that knowledge from thin air?
I also reminded you to @ people who you're addressing. You said you weren't sure if I would reply. Than why write it?
Either way, don't be patronising and then tell people online to calm down, I'm perfectly calm. I'm not sure what EOT is but I hope you have a great day. Take care

This has also been my experience.

I am dyslexic and only got any help for it when I went to a grammar school for sixth form. I was academic and my comp did not have the time or resources to help SEN students who weren’t C/D borderline. They didn’t see the point in me getting any help if I was already getting As and A*s. The grammar school absolutely did.

🤦🏼‍♀️☮️

Dd took 11+ with dyslexia but we didn't try to ask for extra time because she had already decided she didn't want to go (mean girls who bullied her for dyslexia were trained to go). However one other girl in the year who had very severe dyslexia - had the coloured sheet and a lot of extra support - tried. They gave her a timed sheet to copy out. She did what she could - mum said illegible squiggles in a long line. They said she had written over a certain % of the paper so didn't qualify. It was a complete joke. To be honest there isn't a single dyslexic pupil in their year and from what I hear very little in the way of provisions for SEN at all. I am very glad we didn't choose it despite her narrowly passing - she would have struggled with the attitude I think.

It is really worth looking at how many kids with SEN they have and asking parents at the school if they know of provisions. I imagine your head will be able to give guidance on any tests for extra time, they may be better in your area.

I have 2 DC with very similar needs as your DS, both are in grammar school. We live in a highly selective grammar area. No extra time for 11+ but other needs are taken into consideration, eg larger font, coloured paper. Extra time in GCSE & A Levels is a need proven in school in the years before 11 and 13. Yes, lessons are more in depth and faster paced but not out of reach for a bright child. Definitely speak to SENco at open evenings, and I think I would ask how many of the current Yr11 sitting GCSEs atm have SEN provision for those exams and compare it with national average; some schools have great SEN departments and others don’t, bright grammar kids are no different to any other kids in terms of average SEN percentages. Also, if you have a choice of grammars look at their exam results, all too often parents are enticed by the best performing grammar one with lower results may be a better fit.

@CrikeyMajikey that's really helpful, thank you.

My ds currently goes to a really good primary school but they have been sceptical about his diagnosis and haven't given extra support. I think it's because he isn't struggling academically (but probably gets more tired/takes longer than he should etc) so am thinking that may continue at secondary. I just want to choose somewhere which gives him the support he needs whilst also allowing him to thrive as he absolutely loves learning - I guess it's just finding where the right place is.

I think you maybe misunderstand.

The diagnosis means nothing.

The school reacts to the educational issues being presented

Your child is not presenting with any issues

It does not matter what diagnosis a child comes in with, the school deals with the issues presenting.

A child with a dyslexia diagnosis may have not problems in the classroom at all. A child without a diagnosis may have many. The school directs its resources towards the second child

@sixtyandsomething
I didn't mean he doesn't present as having problems. He obviously does and did as we wouldn't have pursued a diagnosis.

But the point is, the issues your child will be having is that they're not meeting their potential. There's no law for a school to ensure a child meets their potential or that a school has to be perfect. The only thing within law is the school/ LA has to be meeting the child's needs. If they are making progress in line with curriculum etc plus they're not disruptive or visibly miserable etc than the resources will be given to the children who's needs aren't being met. Remember unless your child has an EHCP, any SEN support is fully coming from the school budget and they have to prioritise.
This is exactly what will happen at secondary. This is why I'm saying that your child will likely have more support in a grammar as they may be the more 'extreme' end of need. I'm not saying a super selective grammar, just a grammar. They are not all the same and it's important you only apply to one that does fit your needs. Same goes for comps. There's lots of comps where the intake is mostly middle or high prior attainers and your son would likely get more support there than at a school with lots of low prior attainers. They may have amazing SEN departaments but that'll be interventions aimed at kids who aren't likely to pass. So not the level or type of support your child will need.

There's lots of comps where the intake is mostly middle or high prior attainers and your son would likely get more support there than at a school with lots of low prior attainers

You are absolutely correct but that would mean moving to the catchment area where the properties are very expensive.

Yh for sure. Usually they're the very sought after ones. Some do have things like governors tests etc that make the catchment much wider for a certain number of places. A semi selective type school may be a really good alternative to grammar if Op has one near.

@kezzykicks coming to this late but just wanted to say if you're still weighing it up, I'd try for the grammar if it seems a good fit otherwise. We're not a grammar school area but I have a year 6 DS who is very bright and dyslexic and we are having the same issues in primary and the same concerns about secondary school options, albeit without the complication of grammar school decisions in the mix.

@Foxesandsquirrels the picture you paint sounds familiar already, and DS isn't even in secondary yet. You said, "Their need for support will be accessing high level content. The support needing to be given in a dyslexia friendly way. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's very unlikely to happen in a comp. They're far more likely to just be plonked in a low middle or middle set." I hear you. They're meeting or exceeding age related [for now] and they're not throwing the chairs around or in mental health crisis [yet] and they're lucky to be bright [so school feels they're advantaged already]...they don't register on the radar.

But...we know the risks of our children going off the rails without support. We're aware of the strain of having cognitive abilities that are out of sync with age peers at both ends of the scale, and having neither set of needs supported. It's sobering that DME/2E children are overrepresented in the prison population and in the suicide statistics. Less dramatically, we can see their low level unhappiness, frustration and exhaustion from school days and we know it doesn't have to be like that, with a bit of understanding from teachers. Very often at least one parent will have lived experience of going through school undiagnosed and unsupported, and doesn't want history to repeat - 30+ years later you'd think we'd be better than this.

In your experience, what can parents like me and @kezzykicks do for the best? I don't want to just stand by and wring my hands. I understand about scarce resources and needing to prioritise, but a lot of the adjustments that would help don't actually cost a huge amount, they just need understanding and willingness to provide support. If a comp is where they end up (as DS will for sure, as we're not a grammar school area) what is the art of the possible these days?

There are so many dyslexic kids in comprehensive schools that the kids have dedicated group sessions

Really? Severely dyslexic but very bright child... now in Y11. Diagnosed in Y3 by school's own Ed Psych. Yet to have ANY help beyond access arrangements - and one dyslexic teacher doing some 1:1 work with DD out of kindness.

All SEN capacity taken up with emotional and behavioural issues at 2 schools so far. No dyslexia sessions I have ever heard of or been told about.

I would say it is far more likely that you would get dyslexia specific help at a grammar.

I would say it is far more likely that you would get dyslexia specific help at a grammar.

Not sure why you believe in it. Grammar is also a state school. It is not TLC private school. And they have fewer kids with dyslexia there ( percentage- wise).

@persimonne72 I have no experience and we're not a grammar county, but my instinct would be the same as @ohcrumbswherenow. In a non-selective school, I don't think it's always seen as necessary or even equitable to expend time and resources on a dyslexic child who can compensate sufficiently through their strengths to at least meet age related expectations - the sense is that they're lucky and advantaged by virtue of being bright, and if they can muddle through to meet age related expectations on their own, the job is done and they don't fall within the definition of SEN. Such schools may well have considerably more dyslexia expertise, but that's no help to a child who isn't recognised as having any educational needs "additional to or different from" in the first place, because they are at capacity supporting a range of very complex needs, and children who are struggling to access the curriculum or working significantly behind.

So I wonder if it's more likely that a grammar school will feel that their very bright dyslexic children do still merit support and adjustments, and have both the will and capacity to assist them to access higher level content and work to their strengths, simply due to the nature of their intake - even if their experience with dyslexic students in terms of absolute numbers is less.

I would not rely on instincts in that matter but facts. Look at the number of EHCP and SEN kids in grammar schools versus other state schools.

Possibly because I attended a super selective grammar...

If you have a child who is capable of a 9, but scoring 7, and a whole load of children capable of scoring a 5 but currently getting a 3 and very limited resources, where are you going to spend your time and effort?

I had one teacher tell me that as far as universities were concerned there was no difference between a 9 and a 7 and so DD was doing just fine and best not to stress her.

Grammars may have low levels of ECHPs (we don't have one despite both severe dyslexia and ADHD) and SEN - but that also means there are fewer children that they need to spend those resources on. There will also be more understanding of 2E children.