School performance indicators: Progress or Attainment?

[dzara]

Hi experienced parents,

What do school performance indicators published on the government website actually mean? I don't understand the definitions provided for "Progress score" and "Attainment score" .... etc ? Which one is more important for choosing a secondary school ? Are there other factors to consider ?

How can a school be rated "Good" and then have average or below average scores in reading and maths ?

Thanks in advance!

Attainment is (roughly) what gcse results the students got.

Progress shows how far they've come. So if two schools both have a year group that all got grade 9's at GCSEs but one school had kids that got 100 at sats and the other school had kids that got 120 at sats then the school that took in the kids that got 100 has made more progress even through they both have the same attainment,

When choosing a school you need to look at your kid. Are they academic? If so look for a school that is good with high attaining kids. If not then look for a school that fits them - are they into arts? Drama? Music?

"So if two schools both have a year group that all got grade 9's at GCSEs but one school had kids that got 100 at sats and the other school had kids that got 120 at sats then the school that took in the kids that got 100 has made more progress even through they both have the same attainment,"

So does that mean that school with better Progress scores have better teachers?

@dzara only potentially, cohort plays a role and remember teachers can change.

Not necessarily. There's always a maximum possible achievement and it's not as simple as performance at a level is indicative of their performance at the next level. Take three kids who have the same academic potential.

One has intensive coaching to try to get entry to academically selective schools at 11 and performed better than expected in their SATs.
One performs as expected in their SATs.
One has a bad day in their exams at 11 and underperforms.

Then they all achieve the same at GCSE.
The progress will look worst for the first child and best for the last child. In reality it's just their scores at 11 didn't really reflect their true potential - if you select on academic achievement at age 11, you end up with more of the kids who have had intensive tutoring to perform better than expected (who unless the intensive tutoring continues won't continue to achieve in the same way) or just had a good day in the exams and therefore their progress is likely to be not as good as the school which takes those who didn't make the grade at age 11.

As others have said you need to look at the two scores together - and consider your own child. If you have an academic child, a school with high achievement but possibly lower progress 8 might be better for them. Whereas a school with lower absolute achievement - but a good progress 8 score might be better for a child that needs a bit more academic support.

When looking, filter for your kind of chold. Ie previous high, mid, or lower achievers.

Once you have done that, I favour progress over attainment, but both can be important. Progress shows how much they can bring students on, but attainment shows peer group and results.

I think for higher achievers you do want to know that there will be some others in class aiming for top grades, and that teachers can get them there.

For lower achievers I would be looking at maths and English passes as it is a right pain resitting at college. 6-7hrs lesson time weekly ...

A bit of both.

A leafy comp might be expected to have better attainment than a sink school - purely down to catchment area. So the progress shows how well the schools do with the cohort the have.

@dzara this thread is relevant: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/5078810-performance-league-tables-what-you-should-know

The progress scores can be very misleading as SATS are so narrowly focused. Progress for my child will be poor, as he did amazing at maths and reading comprehension in SATS and passed GAPS, so his SATS scores were high, but he started secondary two years behind age expected in English writing. Based on his SATS results he should get 7-9 in every subject. He can't possibly achieve that unless he only takes maths and science subjects.

I would personally look more at the atmosphere and feel of the school and location rather than their stats, which some senior leaders will be more or less ethical and successful at manipulating. Same with Ofsted results really. Don't look at the grade, read the comments. Apart from anything else reports done a few years apart can have had significantly different criteria, also once a school is good or outstanding they will usually only have mini-inspections the next few visits which means they can go a very long time between full inspections.

"How can a school be rated "Good" and then have average or below average scores in reading and maths ?"

@dzara the answer to this question is that, since September 2019, Ofsted gradings have been decoupled from results. You can look results up separately so the Ofsted grade doesn't need to be pegged to them. Below-average English and Maths scores could be indicative of a deprived intake, and/or lots of children who are new to the UK and don't speak English at home, and/or lots of persistent absence, but if the school is seen to be teaching these children well, keeping them safe, supporting their pastoral needs, and providing them with a rich curriculum, then it will get a good rating. Why wouldn't they?

Schools that get well above average results tend to have relatively fewer children from deprived backgrounds or with pastoral issues, either because of their location or because of their admissions policy or because of (to some) an unpalatable reputation for strict discipline.

Thanks everyone for the very useful insights.
All points raised are very good points indeed, statistics can only make sense if you know how they're collected and generated. Otherwise, they can be misleading.
@pourindoon Do you mean to say that Ofsted grading is solely based on things like curriculum management and pastoral care ?

Considering the time kids spend at school, what is important in secondary school I think is discipline and safeguarding as children in this age group can get into bad habits with negative peer pressure.

Would be grateful for any tips from parents who have been through this experience. School choice is very limited anyway because it is largely dependent on where you live (catchment) and as others said, academic achievement depends mostly on genetics and tutoring.

@dzara Ofsted inspectors will make graded judgements on:

• the quality of education
• behaviour and attitudes
• personal development
• leadership and management

The school's headline overall effectiveness grade is based on all the above.

You can read more about how the judgements are formed in the framework here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/education-inspection-framework

Happy to be corrected - this is my understanding…

Progress 8 takes the child’s GCSE results in English, maths, the top 3 Ebacc subjects and top three others grades. This is compared with KS2 results.

Children are grouped according to their KS2 results and progress 8 of zero is the average progress made by each cohort. Progress 8 of +1 means each of the 8 GCSE grades was one grade higher than the average for their cohort. Progress 8 of -1 means that each GCSE grade was one grade lower than the average for their cohort.

unsurprisingly, schools that get bright kids get good results… progress 8 adjusts for these different starting points.

It's all based on KS2 results - y6 of primary. It's a bit silly in some areas really because ours did 11+ before SATs and no one really cared about the SATs apart from the school. I still don't think I was ever told what dd got. Funny to think somewhere this is the most important result for her for the next 4 years of her school life.