Secondary schools in NYC

[Dexter77]

Hello,
we are relocating to New York in summer ‘25. My oldest will need to start secondary school there (currently year six).
I’ve been looking at private schools in primarily Manhattan, but we may well end up buying a house in Brooklyn, so great Brooklyn schools would also very Much be of interest.
I’m finding it a bit hard to read between the lines of the various descriptions and reviews of the well respected schools. I suppose we’re looking for a well-regarded “elite” school with excellent, humanistic academic focus and well-rounded pupils who are natural strivers, but equally we’re not keen on an overly discipline-focused school where children learn in perpetual fear of the next bollocking.

I gather from various reviews etc that many of the best private schools are either “progressive”, “child-led”, “social justice focused” and all about nurturing, which doesn’t fill me with confidence regarding the academic side entirely, and make me worry they’ll be too woke; or very strict, elitist, rigid, offering Latin etc but not very caring at all.

I suppose we’d ideally like something in the middle, if that exists at all? I believe in good discipline and hard work but not harsh punishments for a laughing or slightly unkempt child, would like strong arts and social sciences rather than a big focus on STEM (because of my daughter’s natural interests), some pastoral care from engaged staff in small classes who care, but minus all the talk about “the system” oppressing you and decolonisation and so on.
Does such a school exist in NYC?

My child is bright and curious, excellent in writing and reading etc, struggling a bit in maths but mostly owed to Covid, quite sensitive, very hard working but on occasion discouraged or buckling under stress - eg when she feels unprepared for a test or when the classroom becomes very loud and rowdy, or when bullying occurs.

Any advice from parents who have experience of any NYC private schools would be greatly appreciated!

FWIW, I’m currently interested in Nightingale-Bamford and Dwight, followed by Dalton and Columbia prep, followed by British international, Calhoun
and Leman probably. Plus a few others.

Many thanks in advance, and apologies for the long post!

Understood. We know ofc how competitive Ivy League unis are - though it’s honestly not something we’re currently thinking about, who knows how our daughter will develop.
Having said that, my husband as well as many of our friends were Ivy League or Oxbridge educated, and none of them did any of these things you mention, classes at the Guggenheim etc.
Maybe times have changed, and I know these unis have only become more competitive since. But I think elite colleges are actually super weary of rich kids who just box ticked their way through expensive, prestigious sounding extracurriculars. What many of them want to hear in an interview, surely, is whether they can reason well, have read a lot, think deeply about the world?

I’m keen for our children to enjoy a rich tableau of well-taught activities, but we’re not trying to raise star pianists and ballerinas. Thanks for the heads up though, it’s all very useful info!

I haven’t done much research on selective public schools, but I’ve looked at a few, and various seem to be years 9-12 only.
I’ve looked at Hunter and they only accept pupils for year 7 entry, and you’re only eligible to apply if you’ve been resident in New York in year 6, so that’s not an option sadly.

We will definitely explore all the options. Do you have experience of good public schools in NYC?

Times have definitely changed 😂😂😂. Honestly, the biggest factor in choosing a school should be the way it makes you feel when you visit. The one thing the private schools are great at is selling their USP around culture. It would be rare for someone to have both Calhoun and NB on the same list, for example. There will be crazy parents wherever you go, they just seem to be rather more concentrated in Manhattan…….

With school zoning you can often judge the demographic of public schools. Look at websites like niche.com for lots of info. There are lots of “smaller” High Schools with less than 1,000 kids (so about 250 in each year). Then you have super schools with in excess of over 4,000 students.

Are you definitely going to be living on the Upper East Side area? Heading further south to the West Village / Chelsea / Greenwich areas you have the Avenues which has mixed reviews but the three children I know there are absolutely smashing it and ridiculously happy.

I don't, I think you're better off joining local groups on Facebook tbh. I only know one family who moved London- NYC and they found the majority of private schools in NYC they looked around were very very woke. Even the traditional ones called themselves progressive etc. To a level that just wouldn't be acceptable here.
In fact the American school in London ended up getting a scathing Ofsted because of this.
The privates there are also prohibitively expensive so they've got a very very wealthy cohort and the complications that come with that. Nannies, second homes in Nantucket/Islesboro/Cape Cod, mobiles from a young age, shipped off to 7 weeks of camp beg of summer etc etc. They also found a lot were heavy on charity work which is great but the way its done makes the kids weirdly obsessed with the idea that everyone else seems a LOT worse than them? I don't know if that makes sense but I remember going to a tour with her once and we were both a bit like WTF the public school kids are ok like chill you're not that special. It was very much, we must save the poor type type of thing.
Obv not all will be like this but think who can afford 50k a year in day fees.
Anyway my friends kid is in a public school and v happy. They ended up finding their tribe there and found that most middle class families end up in the public system as it's mostly very good, esp in the zones they tend to live in.
I know you want improvement to what you've got now, but I do think going from the state school your child is in now, to a NYC private school, might be a big struggle for your child, and you!

@Dexter77 Also, most ivy's don't interview the way Oxbridge does. They work mostly on applications, for example some get interviews at Harvard but not all. You can request one I believe but your application is seen as complete with or without an interview.

Interesting you say that about Manhattan parents being often crazy. We have the opposite impression. Brooklyn seems full of absurdly woke parents who seem to have lost all critical thinking abilities and conflate bizarre ideologies with a worthwhile education. Most of our friends are Jewish UWSiders and are super down to earth, friendly, politically moderate, diverse in opinion… have a more limited experience of UES parents.

We currently have no idea where we’ll live. It could be UWS, UES or Brooklyn. We will probably buy a house in a convenient enough location once we have found a school, rather than the other way around.

Thanks for the tip re Avenues: it’s already on our list, will look further into it!

And on the changing admissions process in elite colleges: who knows where things will be in 8 or so years when it’s time for my daughter to - potentially - apply. Affirmative action has just been banned by the Supreme Court. A lot can change in a decade.

My husband and I both work in elite, extremely competitive careers. He went to Harvard, came from a very poor background, never had fancy activities, was just brilliant. I didn’t go to great unis, had an Oxford college offer and turned it down (long story), and beat dozens of Oxbridge educated peers in getting into a job where thousands with perfect CVs apply by showing what I am capable of during work experience, was hired on the spot. None of the Oxbridge candidates were, in fact, my first boss made fun of them and their entitlement.

All of which is to say, there are many ways to Rome! Good luck to the UES tiger moms, I don’t feel threatened by them. :)

Many thanks for sharing! I will definitely look at Facebook groups etc, good shout.

We do worry about sending our daughter to Gossip Girl type private schools. We are v high earners, but don’t live like that at all. Our daughter is a bit of a pushover, has often been picked by very bossy girls as their little minion in the past. That’s why we are currently not convinced the elite all-girls schools like Spence and Chapin etc are quite right for her. NB seemed to be a bit more friendly from afar, despite clearly being an old money magnet, but I am quite turned off by these reports about their new intense focus on DEI. We’ll try to visit these schools to get a better picture, but it’s likely we’ll end up trying to get into a school where 14-year-olds don’t wear Chanel handbags.

Another issue we’re worried about re private schools is drug use: some schools are said to have rampant problems with this. Does anyone know more about how best to find out whether that’s the case? I sometimes worry Facebook groups attract terrible accusations like these to reduce the competition for certain schools.

And very interesting re your experiences of privately educated saviour types! Am familiar with this phenomenon.
Hence my immediate scepticism when I read that a school, eg Brearley, is focused on “restorative justice” and so on. That’s really not what I want my children to do at school! 😆

The British International School of NY is highly recommended. They offer a broad curriculum delivered by highly talented staff. The only downside is lack of a sporting field but the children are bussed out for sport. I know they have added to their Upper Years offerings recently.

That’s good to hear! It’s definitely a school we are interested in. We know one family whose children attend the junior school at the moment and they are super impressed.

No problem. If your daughter is quite sensitive I wouldn't send her to a school that has any mention of restorative justice. It'll be sending a lamb to slaughter. I think the public school system there would probably serve her well and you're far more likely to find your circle within that too. You're also far more protected should things go wrong and they have an amazing amazing array of clubs and summer schemes only available to public school kids. Don't get me wrong, there's lots of very well off people with kids in public NYC schools there, as the privates are just so out of reach if you have more than 1 child. My friends son has a friend with a second home in Colorado etc and there's plenty of the bratty disposition too.
The reality is, the most important part of the school is the year group your child will fall into, so when you're looking around schools, keep an eye on that. The school may be lovely, but if you get a bad cohort one year, it can be an awful experience. So even the traditionally 'bratty' private schools, you may find that actually that particular year group would fit your child.
I don't know if you're religious but the religious private schools tend to be cheaper with more bursaries, so attract a bit more of the "normal" folk. They also tend to have a lot less of the wokeness, but its usually replaced with the religion aspect.
I've also heard good things about the British school there, but be mindful there will be lots of movement as it's international so it depends how long you're planning on staying.
Also, upper west side seems more common for the more 'normal' people with money.
Hope it goes well!

Re drugs. Again my knowledge is limited but from what I know, it's far less of a problem than it is in London schools. They're more likely to drink or vape than do drugs and when they do, it's weed that's quite common, whereas in our area of N London, Ketamine and other hard drugs are far more of a problem from Y10 onwards.

Sorry I just read your other reply where you mention friends from UWS and I agree. I was going to say earlier- Brooklyn is definitely the woke central and I wouldn't send my child to Brooklyn friends or any Brooklyn public school if you paid me. And some of the Brooklyn public schools are more difficult to get a space in than the likes of Dalton etc.

I think you are absolutely right on all of this.
What kind of cohort you’ll end up with is clearly one of the most important aspects, alongside the overall school ethos and leadership.
It’s sadly quite hard for us newcomers to the city to gauge from the distance what a cohort and ethos will likely be like in practice, but yes, I think it’s advisable to take a school by its word re “restorative justice” being important etc.
We’ll certainly research public schools more!

It really does feel as if it’ll be quite tricky to find a school that suits people like us and that we can also get into. Who knows, perhaps we’ll open a new school, I’m mad enough to actually do something like that, haha. I’ve read of many parents who love their kids’ schools, but there also seems to be quite a bit of discontent among parents with the current NYC school landscape, particularly with regards to political ideology.

Interesting!

Gosh, had no idea things were this bad in London secondaries! All our London friends have had kids in primaries so far only so we have no experience of secondaries.
I read that Trevor in NYC has a drug problem for instance, but it could just be one of those rumours ofc.

Yup the wokeness is on another level in the states, but esp in blue states. Parents who wouldn't normally look at religious schools or home school, are. It's fuelling the divide really.
Yh drugs are a huge problem in London, both buying and selling, but this was always the case tbh. It's just scary that it's trickled down to secondary, the hard drugs used to start at sixth form/uni.
Yh not surprised with Trevor and I doubt it's a rumour. For the most part, whether public or private, if a school attracts parents from the creative sector, which the private schools with no uniform and anti traditional discipline will, it tends to bring in things like a loose take on drugs etc and that feeds into the cohort behaviour. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Brooklyn public schools had a drug problem.

Yes, from London. Having been through the 8+ and 11+, I’m having a little trouble getting motivated to go through the selection process all over again, in a very strange landscape. If we were planning on returning to the UK, we would go with BIS-NY for sure. However, this will likely be a permanent move.

Are you on the ‘British Mums NYC’ Facebook group? I’ve found it very helpful. There are several school admissions people on there (also British expats) and they’re very open to speaking.

Oh is it not called secondary school in the US? I suppose many middle school grades are part of one entire high/secondary school?

For the most part, middle school and high school are separate.
There are some exceptions. Some school districts keep elementary and middle schools separate and some operate K-8 schools (ages 5-13/14)

Have you looked at public schools at all? The majority of NY students attend public schools. Many would tick all your boxes. Brooklyn Latin School might be up your alley for high school.

What kind of cohort you’ll end up with is clearly one of the most important aspects, alongside the overall school ethos and leadership.
Your student won't be stuck with one particular cohort the way she would in a British school.
American schools put students on 'tracks' for various subjects. They don't advance as a group through the four years. Your daughter could be in an art class, for instance, with students from all the other years in the school. She could be in a history, economics, math or MFL class with the same sort of varied group. Some students will start as freshmen in a calculus class, depending on their ability and previous coursework. Some will start in remedial math or beginning Japanese or Latin, while some will be in a language class to get the required class they need to fulfill state or city graduation requirements. In addition, sports teams, interest-based clubs, drama, choirs, glee, service clubs, etc., will have students in them from across the school. American high schools are not stratified by age or year group, basically.

You can easily find your tribe if you dip your toe into activities.

Don't worry about wokeness. As long as you and your student are not raging homophobes, school will be a good experience.

Pastoral care in public schools tends to be excellent.

Student:teacher ratio is an important consideration in choosing a school. You can also find out the graduation rate, college destinations of students, and more.
https://www.collegetransitions.com/blog/best-public-high-schools-nyc/

It’s all very daunting, I agree. We’ve never gone through a selective school application process, so for us it’ll be uncharted territory.
Many thanks for the tip, I might join that group!

We’ve only started looking and have looked at a few public schools, though not in depth. Thanks for the tip re Brooklyn Latin School, will check it out.

I’d probs prefer to choose a school our daughter can stay in from year 7-12, rather than switch schools again for high school.

Interesting re pupils being grouped together by activity, I don’t quite understand how that would work in practice, because surely pupils of different ages will be working on different projects and topics?

We are looking at student teacher ratios and have found that at some private schools they are excellent, 6:1 or 7:1, even 4:1 in one I’ve come across.
We are, like many other parents, extremely worried about wokeness. We’re not homophobes, but totally reject gender ideology and would take our children out of any school teaching that trans women are women, or that you can change sex. We are also totally opposed to all the decolonisation and anti-truth lived experience nonsense, and don’t think children should be taught in that spirit.

There‘s a good chance that the tide on much of this will be turning soon, it already has in many quarters, lawsuits are coming in thick and fast. But the way things are currently, this will limit us enormously, so much is clear.

To explain a pp- US schools work on credits. To graduate you need an X amount of credits in certain subjects. Each school decides what that is. Google the school you're interested in + graduation requirements. Let's say your daughters school requires 4 credits of English, 4 of maths etc.
She took algebra 1 in middle school so she's ahead, goes straight to algebra 2. But maybe she took algebra 2 over the summer, so she goes to geometry. Geometry is full of 16 year olds and maybe some kids her age who are also ahead. By 16 she's finished the graduation requirements so she's able to take AP classes or classes that give her college credits. Or she could graduate early altogether. I know a girl who graduated a year early and was 1 year ahead in uni/college in credits as she took so many summer classes.
Every child will enter high school with a different amount of credits. They'll choose different electives etc. So its very very different to UK and very mixed. Saying that, the private schools will have a lot less flexibility than public schools as they're much much smaller so the intake DOES matter a lot. They'll also have a lot less access to for eg classes with local college/uni where your daughter can take college credit classes whilst still in high school.

That is extremely helpful, thank you! I was aware of AP courses etc, but assumed this meant pupils just study tougher papers than their age group peers.

Incidentally, I’ve read that various private schools such as Horace Mann are moving away from AP courses, though I haven’t found any info yet as to why that might be.

I‘ve also read that some schools hold classes together, probably because they’re very small as you say, eg I think Brearley and Chapin. And I had no idea you could take summer classes that count towards graduation! Very good to know!

I noticed the same thing — schools moving away from AP. I asked the question on the FB group I mentioned and got these answers:

I asked on the Facebook group ‘brit mums in NYC’ about Aps, and this is the
feedback I got:

We have just gone through this with our daughter. AP courses don’t tend to be offered in most of the private schools (Brearley, Chapin, Browning etc).
If your child is at a private school and they’re interested, you can find someone to help them prep outside and then a test center to sit the exam. AP courses tend to be more challenging than standard high school classes and
can provide pupils with college-level curriculum. It help students stand out during the college admissions process, as it shows universities that they are capable of handling more rigorous academic work. If you’re applying to
UK universities, they will request AP scores and SAT/ACT scores or if you’re child is doing the IB curriculum, those scores will be submitted. Many
private schools value an individualized approach to teaching and learning, which allows them to tailor education to each student's needs and interests. The structured nature of AP courses may not align with that philosophy, as
it can limit teachers' flexibility in planning and assessing students' progress. That said, many of the subjects such as global history and US
history that’s taught in private schools is very similar to the AP courses and most students just require a few outside sessions to familiarize
themselves with the structure of the exam rather than the content. I should add that we have just gone through UCAS and the universities that my
daughter applied to gave her unconditional and conditional offers based on her AP scores. She also had to write down her SAT score on the application.

They weren't offered at my son's school. All I can say is... it depends. Some schools require them, some don't. They're useful if you are applying to
the UK but there again it depends on the school.

To add to the confusion: my children’s (private) school doesn’t offer AP classes but does offer AT (Advanced Topic) classes. You need to show
proficiency and interest to be enrolled in one of these classes and - most crucially - have no scheduling conflict. They may or may not help your college application. We’re still a couple of years off needing to pay proper
attention, but right now I’m finding it all so confusing. There’s little comparison to UCAS (other than for med school), A Levels/STEP/S Level classes.

I worked at a private school for years as a dean of students and had this conversation a lot with parents. Private schools tend to avoid AP classes as the curriculum is fixed, and there is more ‘teaching to the test’. They’re useful because they’re standardised so colleges (and UK unis) know exactly what an A grade for AP Physics means. But the NYC private schools want to teach (often) more rigorous and more individualised courses, so will create their own AT. The reason the top private schools can do this is because their ‘brand’ assures colleges of the rigour of the course. But this isn’t true in the UK where they don’t know about the status of these schools. 🏫 I always recommended students applying to college in the US to avoid APs since they’re extra work that needs to be led by student (school often won’t help) and unnecessary. The only caveat is if they are likely looking to major in science/maths, because then the subject AP might be useful. OR if they’re applying to the UK when again it might be useful. However I had
plenty of student get into top colleges/unis in US and UK for all majors with zero APs and just an array of ATs.

Privates seem to be phasing them out. Even some that said they were offering ultimately didn’t leaving a few parents very frustrated!

@Dexter77 Not all private schools will accept summer school credits and not all private school kids will be able to even do them! There's a lot of pros and cons of private schools in the US system that goes far beyond the student teacher ratio.