Highgate or UCS - girl joining sixth form

[DibbleDooDah]

Academic DD currently at an all girls school and wants to be with boys in the sixth form. Both schools work logistically.

She wants to do maths, further maths, physics and probably DT but might do computer science - still mulling over that 4th option.

At other (less academic) schools, the number of girls in the FM, physics, DT and CS classes have been tiny. Think one girl and ten boys. Whilst we kind of expect an uneven spread between the sexes, does anyone have any insight into current splits in these subjects? Open days aren’t until September.

Also, thinking it might be easier to make friends at UCS as all the girls are new at the same time? Anyone had a girl join Highgate at sixth form?

DD is quietly confident and generally good at making friends in new situations. She would find it hard trying to break into cliques though.

We have also looked at standalone sixth form colleges (both state and private) and hardly any offer DT / product design e.g. Woodhouse College. Any suggestions of other places we should consider?

Bumping

UCS and Highgate have quite different selection processes for 6th form. At DD’s school there was very little overlap between those receiving offers from UCS and from Highgate last year. I’d suggest she apply to both and, if she has a fistful of offers as a result, make a decision then.

My DD will start at UCS 6th form in September and, FWIW, the fact that all the girls would be new together was an important factor for her in deciding which offer to accept.

Woodhouse is definitely worth a look, and I’d also suggest you consider Camden School for Girls.

Ah, sorry - just read what you said about DT. I can’t help with where that’s offered.

Westminster takes sixth form girls, since you have an academic girl.

No DT or Computer Science at A Level, though.

DT is not considered a core subject and many highly academic schools will not offer it since the top flight universities don't like it. I would gently caution against DT if that is the ambition.

Really surprised though that Westminster doesn't offer Computer Science as an A level option (I even checked thinking PP was mistaken!)

I get what you say about DT, but not having CS now a days is unusual, especially for a school as well funded as Westminster.

Agreed re CS

@preppingforlife She would have maths, further maths and physics as well though. It also lends itself very well to engineering (and is accepted by Imperial) and she is already a very able Python programmer. She likes the programming and coding side of CS but finds the theory boring. She does love everything about DT though.

We were also surprised that Westminster doesn’t offer CS. I totally get DT though. Not a core subject, seen as a “soft” option by some, shortage of DT teachers.

Woodhouse doesn’t do DT. Neither do the north London private sixth forms.

To be fair, the gender split in classes is probably our main area of focus at present. I would hope in the region of a quarter to a third of the class would be female or is that disillusioned?

Bit put off by Camden due to my own experience at my all girls school where the boys who joined in the sixth form thought they were God’s gift and only there for the girls. Probably unfair if we are looking at UCS though - it’s just the shoe is on the other foot 😂😂😂. I’ll add it to the list.

Habs Girls do both CS and DT at A Level, though the current level of integration with the boys is probably not what you are looking for.

Emanuel School is fully mixed and does offer both CS and DT - obviously is it in South London but easily accessible via the Overground, so depending on where you are it might be worth a look.

UCS and Highgate both offer DT (as pre-U and A level respectively), as do some other very academic schools.
If only doing 3 subjects, it's safer to stick to core academic/facilitating subjects but a 4th is a different matter. DT as a 4th subject should be fine, particularly if relevant to the intended degree (eg. engineering). Times change, and with the advent of technologies like 3D printing, DT is more in vogue.
Imperial college maths school might be worth a look (no DT, but you could do CS through their link with woodhouse?).

Agree re UCS being easier to make friends etc. Consider applying to Dame Alice Owens too - easy train journey to Potters Bar. Great school with great facilities and last year engineering was one of the most popular subjects students went on to do at university

@notquitetonedeaf Pre U doesn’t exist any more.

A lot of university does NOT require A level in CS for their CS degree entry. Mathematics is a must though.

Yes, nearly all RG and many other unis have that admission policy and I am sure some DC from Westminster go on to sturdy CS at university every year.

Just very unusual I thought for one of the most high profile, academic indie to not have CS at A level.

I think it's important to get a taste of theoretical computer science before heading to a 3 year CS degree.

Certain areas that are core to a good CS degree, computer architecture, data structures, some discrete maths etc can be excruciatingly dull to people not already into it. Even many who enjoy programming do not like these areas.

A level specs give a good exposure to all these and help people decide whether a CS degree is really a good fit.

Similar to economics - not essential at A level tor admission to most unis (maths and FM is sufficient), but will be a pretty big risk to not do it at A level. Academic economics is nothing at all like the fun popular economics books that are often in recommended reading lists.

Pursuing A levels in computer science or economics isn’t the sole path to understanding the subject matter of the degree. There are numerous alternative methods to gain the necessary exposure, especially for rapidly evolving subject like CS. Students gain exposure via industrial internship/projects, online course, bootcamp or information competitions.

According to the website in Westminster school, computer science degree is one of the popular subject for university destination.

I reckon substantial number of the CS/economics degree entry in the university do not take CS/Econ A level, maybe vary by University but some universities does provide past application subject distribution for information.

yes, it is possible to build that knowledge outside of A level, but not easy and suboptimal.

For one, it has to be done on top work needed for at least 3 A levels.

Secondly, it will be quite difficult to get exposure in relevant areas using bootcamps, competitions and so on. What is popular (sells well) in typical bootcamps are vocational topics, but what a student would mainly be doing in the first two years in a good CS degree is very different.

Just because CS is rapidly evolving does not necessarily mean that the core modules, especially foundational compulstory modules in first two years, have changed dramatically. And it is some of these areas (though not all) that A level spec touches.

According to the website in Westminster school, computer science degree is one of the popular subject for university destination.

I was curious and had a look in their website.

Last year, 4.5% (7/155) of their students went for CS or related degrees. That's roughtly the percentage of students in England enrolled in CS degree few years back (4.4%). So doesn't look that popular a subject.

One can also argue taking CS A level are suboptimal. This is because

1. Students take on A levels in Maths, further Maths and Physics are open to a wider degree options compared to computer science.

1. It is more useful and maybe more challenging to get exposure as oppose to taking A level subject. But it is also more beneficial beyond just getting the grades and curriculums.

1. Yes it is 7 students (4.5%) but that is the same number of students as taking Economics. The most popular subject engineering and mathematics are 15-16 students. If you cross check at school such as Habs boys (which do offer CS A level), there are also 7 students taking CS related degree (note this is a boy school). There are not enough signs of more students taking CS degree in school offering CS A level.

Almost without exception, you do not need CS at A-level to take the subject at university. They do, however, expect you to have both maths and further maths at the highest grades. Some universities say that CS is a “useful” or “recommended” subject to have, but it’s definitely not compulsory. This includes Oxford and Imperial.

Choosing these four options at A-level keeps her options open for a wide range of degrees - maths, physics, engineering, computer science etc.

If you cross check at school such as Habs boys (which do offer CS A level), there are also 7 students taking CS related degree (note this is a boy school). There are not enough signs of more students taking CS degree in school offering CS A level.

Maybe we are looking at different data.

I looked at the Habs boys data from here https://www.habsboys.org.uk/senior-school/academic/university-applications-and-destinations . On right, there is a pdf called 'university destinations 2023' that has destination by subject on page 3.

Going by that, 15 out of 152 went for CS and related degrees (I included Cyber Security and Data Science in this list). That is about 10%, roughly double the percentage in Westminster. Percentage of CS destinations in Westminster is in fact lower than national average (5.2%).

It doesn't prove anything of course, if we look long enough we will find schools where CS is an A level option and where CS degree destinations are even lower than Westminster's.

Not all schools offer CS at A level and naturally, CS is optional in university admission criteria (just like FM is optional in many maths heavy degrees when school doesn't offer it). But if a school offers it, it would be odd to not take it if one is actually interested in a CS degree (many drop it a year later).

Majority of CS cohort in an undergraduate course would have done CS A level. For example, around 70% of shortlisted Oxford applicants do CS at A level (https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/admissions_statistics/public_report2022.html#fn3)

"Maybe we are looking at different data.

It doesn't prove anything of course, if we look long enough we will find schools where CS is an A level option and where CS degree destinations are even lower than Westminster's."

Yes, I was referring to different data – specifically, the Habs boys’ data for 2021. I also noted that Habs is a boys’ school, and at Westminster Sixth Form, about 40% are girls. I would discount data science or mathematical computing as CS displine degree but I guess people can have different option on this. It’s worth noting that in the latest UCAS applications, the ratio of boys to girls applying for CS degrees is 81% to 19%.

"Not all schools offer CS at A level and naturally, CS is optional in university admission criteria (just like FM is optional in many maths heavy degrees when school doesn't offer it). But if a school offers it, it would be odd to not take it if one is actually interested in a CS degree (many drop it a year later)."

My point is that an A-level in Computer Science is not a prerequisite for applying to a university Computer Science degree. The advantages of taking it are limited. Therefore, students aspiring to a CS degree should not simply dismiss schools that do not offer an A-level in Computer Science.

The Oxford admission link you gave shows that more than 30% shortlisted students do not offer CS A level, this is compared to less than 8% not taking FM. In fact the latest 2023-2024 admission statistics page Oxford no longer mentioned the statistics for A level CS, but they still mentioned statistics of who offer A level FM. Drect quote from the school

"For the Computer Science degrees, Mathematics is essential at A-level or equivalent. Further Mathematics is very strongly recommended. Computer Science/Computing can be helpful and interesting if available, but it is by no means a requirement: tutors are just as happy for applicants to explore their interest in the subject outside of the school curriculum."

https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/admissions_statistics/public_report2023.html#fn5

@JessyCarr Hello, I was curious if you knew why the selection process for UCS and Highgate differed. Are they looking for different characteristics within students? Different goals perhaps?

@Hector1203 I honestly don’t know, but I suppose each place just evolves its own processes and priorities to suit itself! I do think Highgate and UCS are quite different schools though, and we definitely got a different vibe from each through their open events. Friends of ours, who have had one DC at each of them simultaneously, agree that they each have their own culture and quirks, as perhaps you would expect.

DD is at UCS now and has settled very happily. You probably know that the standard conditional offer for Highgate Sixth Form is tougher than that at UCS in terms of GCSE grades, so it may be a fair inference that Highgate (already having a balance between girls and boys) is more laser-focused on optimal academic credentials, whereas UCS wants to bring in girls to match their boys in all-roundedness. UCS offer-holders are certainly expected to knuckle down and make their grades though - we knew girls who fell slightly short on results day and, make no mistake, they are quite happy to go to their waiting list at that point.

I know this post is a little old but DT is ABSOLUTELY valued by “top flight” institutions with the the subject combination maths, further maths and physics. In fact, conversations at Oxford, Cambridge and Imperial all said it’s looked on very favourably for engineering degrees.

The main problem is the shortage of DT teachers and facilities in schools.

Literally not mentioned once as a preferred subject:

https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/apply/before/choosing-high-school-subjects
https://www.trin.cam.ac.uk/undergraduate/applying/a-level-subject-combinations/
https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/courses/admission-requirements/admission-requirements-table - only for materials science and it's 'helpful' rather than recommended or essential