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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

Secondary school appeal

34 replies

Anneycul · 04/04/2024 20:22

Hi,

Can anyone offer advice on secondary school appeals? We did not qualify for our first choice due to distance. Our first choice is our closest school but as we live in a rural village this school is about 7 miles away and their intake was a 5 mile radius. Instead we have been offered a school which is further away. Both schools require a school bus to travel to.

We are working parents who often have to work late and our child will require after school/ evening care. My child's grandparents live a very short walk from the school that didn't offer a place. The grandparents were going to be our after school provision. The school we were offered is too far to walk to the grandparents house and there is easy public transport either (two buses and a walk).

Now I would like to know if not being able to access his after school care would be a valid reason for an appeal?

Also, I feel it is mad that we are penalised for living in a rural village and can't access our closest school when other pupils who live in between the two schools could walk to either one.

OP posts:
Zingy123 · 04/04/2024 20:24

Very unlikely. Unfortunately childcare issues don't have any bearing on appeals.

PinkFrogss · 04/04/2024 20:26

You might want to report your thread and ask for it to be moved to secondary education OP, there’s lots of knowledgeable posters with appeals experience on that board.

My understanding is that at secondary age they are expected to be able to travel themselves and childcare isn’t really a factor due to age. Could grandparents pick them up?

WhatsMyEmail · 04/04/2024 20:29

Generally speaking an appeal on a school place is only successful if there has been an error in how the allocation rules were applied.

Is there a waiting list for places? I work in school intake and there is usually a fair bit of shuffle between now and the first few weeks of September. Make sure to read the admissions policy document for the school you want so you know all the details about any waiting list and how it's operated.

EmmaGrundyForPM · 04/04/2024 20:32

Unless your dc has additional needs, after school care isn't deemed necessary once at secondary school. I don't think you can use that as an argument.

Given the distance,presumably your LA will.provide school transport?

ThatBeverleyMacca · 04/04/2024 21:58

WhatsMyEmail · 04/04/2024 20:29

Generally speaking an appeal on a school place is only successful if there has been an error in how the allocation rules were applied.

Is there a waiting list for places? I work in school intake and there is usually a fair bit of shuffle between now and the first few weeks of September. Make sure to read the admissions policy document for the school you want so you know all the details about any waiting list and how it's operated.

What you have said about appeals generally only being successful if an error has been made is more applicable for appeals for places in reception/infant school, and is incorrect for secondary school admissions, where infant class size rules do not apply and an appeal can also be won by proving that the advantage to the child by gaining a place is greater than the detriment caused to the school by having to admit an extra pupil. However, unfortunately childcare and transport issues are generally not taken into account for appeals and will not give you a strong case OP, as others have said. There are several admissions and appeals experts on this board who will hopefully be along soon to offer advice.

clary · 05/04/2024 00:51

Hey OP agree with @ThatBeverleyMacca that there is more hope for a secondary appeal than an infant one. But also agree yes that secondary school students are expected to get themselves home and not need any after-school support.

If you do a search on secondary appeals you will find lots of threads with good ideas. Basically, ignoring aspects like after school care and transport, what can the preferred school offer that your son needs? It could be something like specific subjects, clubs offered, music tuition - things he has already got a demonstrable interest or affinity for. Say he has a German-speaking grandma and studied German at primary, and this is offered as an MFL at the preferred school - that kind of thing.

Btw since he may need to start at the allocated school, what sort of time will he get home? And what time do you get home? It's very usual for 11-12yos to be on their own at home for an hour or two after school. Barring SEN of some kind they should be Ok with that.

Tiredalwaystired · 05/04/2024 06:59

Yes, agree with the above. Given that childcare doesn’t really have to be in place now except in special needs situations, this won’t be a grounds for appeal as that criteria won’t count for long in your child’s secondary school career.

Can you start to leave them alone for periods of time from now, building it up over time? In Year seven I just encouraged mine to do a lot of after school clubs organised by the school so they weren’t on their own for too long after school. Does the school website show clubs and societies so your child can pick ones of interest now?

in the meantime you can always stay on the waiting list for your preferred school.

Overthebow · 05/04/2024 07:05

Do they need after school care in year 7? I always just got myself home at that age but I know times might have changed now.

gonnabgood · 05/04/2024 07:37

"Also, I feel it is mad that we are penalised for living in a rural village and can't access our closest school when other pupils who live in between the two schools could walk to either one."

@Anneycul unfortunately there is no admissions system that can please everyone. Did you consider secondary school admissions when you bought your home in the rural village? That may have been a very long time ago, but it was arguably a foreseeable issue. That is why it's not a strong appeal argument - in theory, we choose where we live. People and schools aren't evenly distributed, so if everyone had an automatic right to go to their nearest school, the system wouldn't cope.

Do you qualify for free transport to the offered school?

If you are not happy for your child to be home alone, can they travel from the offered school to their grandparents' home? Or can the grandparents travel to your home to provide childcare on evenings when you work late? Or is there a local childminder or babysitter or responsible teenager who you could pay to do that role?

OnceUponARainbow88 · 05/04/2024 07:39

What you are describing probably is similar to pretty much every family, working parents/after school issues/transport issues. So no I can’t imagine it’s worth an appeal on those grounds

SmileWhileYouStillHaveTeeth · 05/04/2024 23:17

transport issues are generally not taken into account for appeals
@ThatBeverleyMacca

Yes they are, but for the kids with mobility issues, coordination issues, children with anxiety and ASD etc etc.

gonnabgood · 06/04/2024 06:17

SmileWhileYouStillHaveTeeth · 05/04/2024 23:17

transport issues are generally not taken into account for appeals
@ThatBeverleyMacca

Yes they are, but for the kids with mobility issues, coordination issues, children with anxiety and ASD etc etc.

Edited

Just to clarify ... that's professionally evidenced anxiety, at a level that would severely impact the ability to travel to school, not the very common situation of a child or parent feeling anxious about travelling to school.

ADHD is very common too, so there would have to be professional evidence that it impacts the child's ability to travel.

Professional evidence needs to be independent and credible - not just echoing the opinion of a parent.

prh47bridge · 06/04/2024 10:19

As others have said, transport and childcare issues don't win appeals unless there is professional evidence that the child is unable to make the journey to the allocated school due to SEN, disability or similar. A child of secondary school age is generally expected to be able to make the journey to and from school independently and to not need any after school care.

Assuming there hasn't been a mistake, you can win by showing that the appeal school offers things that are particularly relevant to your son and that are not available at the allocated school.

lavenderlou · 06/04/2024 10:25

Unless the child has a significant need I don't believe lack of childcare would qualify. Secondary-aged children aren't generally considered to need childcare. My DD has been getting the bus home, letting herself into an empty house and staying by herself for an hour or two since starting secondary.

I would make sure you stay on the waiting list and consider if there are any other aspects of your first choice school that could help you with an appeal. Does your DC, for example, learn a musical instrument and only the first school offers peripatetic lessons? Or learn a language that is only offered at the first school?

gonnabgood · 06/04/2024 11:55

"you can win by showing that the appeal school offers things that are particularly relevant to your son and that are not available at the allocated school."

"Does your DC, for example, learn a musical instrument and only the first school offers peripatetic lessons? Or learn a language that is only offered at the first school?"

It would have to be a strong case, that outweighed the school's case for being full. Assuming this school is experienced at defending appeals, and puts up a reasonable case that they don't have spare capacity, a case based on hobbies and interests is relatively weak - especially if they are interests that can be pursued outside of school, or are based on curriculum subjects that the school might offer now but not in the future.

MarchingFrogs · 06/04/2024 12:45

gonnabgood · 06/04/2024 11:55

"you can win by showing that the appeal school offers things that are particularly relevant to your son and that are not available at the allocated school."

"Does your DC, for example, learn a musical instrument and only the first school offers peripatetic lessons? Or learn a language that is only offered at the first school?"

It would have to be a strong case, that outweighed the school's case for being full. Assuming this school is experienced at defending appeals, and puts up a reasonable case that they don't have spare capacity, a case based on hobbies and interests is relatively weak - especially if they are interests that can be pursued outside of school, or are based on curriculum subjects that the school might offer now but not in the future.

Edited

In the music example, if the school facilitates peripatetic music lessons, especially if these are undertaken as time out from actial lesson time, rather than during lunchtimeor at the end of the s hool day, then it could reasonably be argued that that school regards learning to play a musical instrument as a bit more than a hobby.

gonnabgood · 06/04/2024 12:51

MarchingFrogs · 06/04/2024 12:45

In the music example, if the school facilitates peripatetic music lessons, especially if these are undertaken as time out from actial lesson time, rather than during lunchtimeor at the end of the s hool day, then it could reasonably be argued that that school regards learning to play a musical instrument as a bit more than a hobby.

Show quote history

If a child is having peripatetic violin lessons at primary school and wants to continue them, then doing them at the secondary school is one option, but doing them outside of school is another option. There would have to be a very good, evidenced reason why they could only do them in school, e.g. because they were heavily subsidised and the family had a low income.

If the same child is already having violin lessons outside of school (rather than peripatetic lessons) it obviously weakens the argument.

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 06/04/2024 15:10

How late do you work? You may find that your child isn't getting in until about 4.30 anyway? The school may have clubs and a late bus a few times a week?

If there are additional needs involved then obviously it's different, but secondary school children are expected to be able to stay "home alone" for a couple of hours each evening.

FWIW, I do think the school system penalises rural families in a lot of ways, but there's not much you can do about that!

SmileWhileYouStillHaveTeeth · 06/04/2024 19:04

gonnabgood · 06/04/2024 06:17

Just to clarify ... that's professionally evidenced anxiety, at a level that would severely impact the ability to travel to school, not the very common situation of a child or parent feeling anxious about travelling to school.

ADHD is very common too, so there would have to be professional evidence that it impacts the child's ability to travel.

Professional evidence needs to be independent and credible - not just echoing the opinion of a parent.

Show quote history

nobody will have an evidence that it affects the child's ability to take that trip. No doctor, no teacher, nobody will provide that kind of statement because... they are not witness to it and they don't live with them - I tried that.

I am also appealing on a similar grounds but we have a formal diagnose on the paper of dyspraxia, add and in the same letter which states diagnose a suggestion to follow with Camhs checking for Asperger.

SmileWhileYouStillHaveTeeth · 06/04/2024 19:23

lavenderlou · 06/04/2024 10:25

Unless the child has a significant need I don't believe lack of childcare would qualify. Secondary-aged children aren't generally considered to need childcare. My DD has been getting the bus home, letting herself into an empty house and staying by herself for an hour or two since starting secondary.

I would make sure you stay on the waiting list and consider if there are any other aspects of your first choice school that could help you with an appeal. Does your DC, for example, learn a musical instrument and only the first school offers peripatetic lessons? Or learn a language that is only offered at the first school?

Does your DC, for example, learn a musical instrument and only the first school offers peripatetic lessons? Or learn a language that is only offered at the first school?

Where I live people have zero success with that because of the assumption that a child can enroll in paid extracurricular activities

prh47bridge · 06/04/2024 22:17

SmileWhileYouStillHaveTeeth · 06/04/2024 19:23

Does your DC, for example, learn a musical instrument and only the first school offers peripatetic lessons? Or learn a language that is only offered at the first school?

Where I live people have zero success with that because of the assumption that a child can enroll in paid extracurricular activities

Show quote history

If that is genuinely the case, the appeal panels need better training. That is not the kind of assumption appeal panels should make.

SmileWhileYouStillHaveTeeth · 06/04/2024 22:21

No, there is no such thing as rule. But I am stating it on observation and discussions with many many parents. They do not succeed on that basis. Of course it varies case by case as there are many other variables in each case. However, in a busy metropolitan area it is not challeninging to find a tutor. The success here is less than 20 percent.

Original poster
Anneycul · 07/04/2024 06:42

To answer some of the questions. Each school (the one he has been allocated and the closest one) has one bus that runs to and from the school but if my child misses that one bus there is no other. So my child could not take part in any after school activities, as he then could not get home. There is no direct public transport from the school he has been offered to, to his grandparents house.

OP posts:
MississippiAF · 07/04/2024 06:45

So he can get a bus straight there, and straight home?

gonnabgood · 07/04/2024 07:12

Anneycul · 07/04/2024 06:42

To answer some of the questions. Each school (the one he has been allocated and the closest one) has one bus that runs to and from the school but if my child misses that one bus there is no other. So my child could not take part in any after school activities, as he then could not get home. There is no direct public transport from the school he has been offered to, to his grandparents house.

This is the downside of rural living. Can you move? It's not just school travel - just think about the next 7 years. Until he can pass his driving test, how will your son meet his friends and increase his independence without you taking him everywhere? Rural living can be anathema for teenagers.