2024 waiting list/appeal support thread

[Hopeful88]

I thought I'd start a support thread for everyone in the same position - either waiting on appeal outcomes or hoping for a secondary school place from a waiting list.
I've read all the advice I can and I'm doing the best I can but I'm still struggling with the unknown.
We're currently in the 20s on the waiting list for our first choice school and an unknown number for the second choice.
Fingers crossed for everyone in the same position. 🤞🏼🤞🏼

If they over offer by enough to make another class, it often actually means they fully intend to make a bulge class that year so yes will offer from the list to maintain the numbers. The LA or school should be able to tell you if that's the case.

Sometimes schools get caught out by this and have numbers fall back further than planned, so say they end up with 20 or so over not 30 - which means there is an easier argument to be made at appeals - since they offered 30, they must be prepared to deal with 30. A school in that situation might well put up a weak case as it would want the extra 10 pupils in funding for the bulge!

That's an argument that can be made to all schools that over offer and fall back; they must be prepared to take and deal with the full number they offer. They will argue back that it doesn't happen, it always falls back, and to have to deal with all of them would cause prejudice - but it's prejudice they were prepared to deal with ...

That’s interesting - the school we are appealing for has for the past 2 years offered over PAN. So we could argue that they clearly aren’t at the absolute limit, as they’ve had a few years where they could have chosen to reduce their intake but haven’t, therefore are clearly prepared to cope with more?

Did they offer over PAN this year?

If not, they could argue that they'd realised they couldn't cope with more.

Also,"prepared to cope" if they had to doesn't mean there wouldn't be prejudice to the education of others to do so.

It shows they have been prepared to do so if they have to, so is definitely worth bringing up, but as I said below, they will argue that it will still cause prejudice, so the panel would still have to balance that with the prejudice to the child.

Yes, they offered over PAN this year. I suspect it might be so they can argue at any appeal they are too full...

Also, my daughter's music teacher teaches at the school (which has a particularly good music department and extracurriculars). I don't think we can use a letter from her in support, as she is a school employee. Is that correct?

No, you can't I'm afraid - the code is explicit on this -

"Panels must not allow representatives of schools to support individual appeals for places at their school at the hearing itself, or by providing letters of support for appellants. Such support could create conflicts of interest and unfairness to other appellants.."

Is access to extras like music a reasonable ground for appeal?

Sort of yes and no - DC plays an orchestral instrument, but the public opportunities for those of their age to play in an orchestra in your area are non-existent, but first preference school fields main orchestra, chamber , wind band with termly concerts etc, okay.

Just, 'they're learning x instrument and you can have lessons during lunchtimes at the school', when they've quite accessibly been having lessons on Tiuesday evenings / Saturday mornings and attending a summer school every year since they were 5, less so.

Thank you. I ask because we’re appealing, and while that isn’t our main argument, I have mentioned access to music groups as a bonus because such opportunities are pretty rare outside of grammar round here. I had chucked it in as an extra on the grounds that it can’t hurt, so good to know it might actually help!

Hi,

we too are appealing for two schools, both of which offer a subject for GCSEs that the allocated school does not. We have got evidence that this subject would be beneficial for DS.

However, we have a question about PAN. We have conflicting evidence

• we have seen the stats for both schools, suggesting that between 20% and 25% appeals to these schools have been successful in the past few years. So they have clearly accepted children on appeal.
• On the other hand, our local authority shows that neither of these schools has allocated over PAN in the last few years.

School appeals are heard in May / June, and in my area there are a lot of people rejecting a school place fairly late in the day in favour of private. So what I think happens is that, once an appeal is accepted, the school ends up over PAN for a short while. However, they then simply stop accepting from waiting list until they are back on PAN. Is this a feasible thought? Is this what is actually happening?

I'd be grateful for some input on this!

@dodi1978

What are you referring to when say "allocated over PAN"?

If you are referring to the number of places offered on offer day, then that's to be expected - they allocate to PAN, then appeals would take them over that number. So they could easily allocate, say, 240 on offer day, have 5 appeals won so start Sept with 245. They still "allocated" 240 though, so that's the number they will state on their website, and the Local Authority will have on their yearly reports. The won appeals don't add into the "allocated" number.

Then as people drop out, if they do, the school doesn't have to take any more from the waiting list until it gets to below PAN. So later years in the school might easily get back to PAN eventually. In areas of high mobility they could get to PAN in year 7 at some point.

One point - an appeal is not 'accepted'. Both the school's (or the LA's, depending on which is the admission authority) presenting officer and the parents present their respective cases to an independent appeal panel; the school the reasons why they cannot admit another pupil into that year group and the parents, the reasons why their DC's need for a place at that specific school outweighs any prejudice that the school (the entity including the facilities, the staff and the students already on roll) would suffer through admitting them.

The only 'accepting' of an appeal that a school does is that the decision of the panel is legally binding, so if an appeal is upheld by the panel, the school has to admit the DC in question.

Hi,

thanks - I realised I used the wrong terminology. Appeal 'upheald' would have been correct.

So, some schools in my area have a PAN of say, 120, and say they admitted 124 in 2023 and 122 in 2022. Others (like the schools I am appealing four) have always - in the last few years admitted just the PAN number). So it seems that some schools regularly admit over PAN, whilst others never do.

It's good to hear that this probably means the number of places offered on offer day, and that schools who need to take extra students via appeal probably just drop back to PAN as students don't accept places.

Is it possible to find out how many appeals have been successful in the past at a particular school? I can only seem to find the information for my London Borough. I would really like to know what number their waiting list went to last year as well but can't find that either. Not that it would help much until I know where we are on the list! It's so frustrating having so little information...

@MsJuniper it’s hard isn’t it? We get no information here. I got confirmation DC was on the waiting list, but that’s it. I know one of ours schools has never admitted a child on appeal, because the Head said so at the open day, but I don’t know for other schools, and waiting lists seem to be a total mystery.

I'm sure the LA could tell you how many appeals had been successful but I decided not to ask because there's no way of knowing how what sort of cases were presented.

Imo a head saying they had never admitted a child on appeal is trying to discourage appeals! Just because they never have before doesn't mean they never will, it's not their decision.

@Secondarywoes His point was more that there’s not really anything to appeal against, their admissions criteria is very simple and they run at capacity every year so can easily demonstrate there’s no space for more. He’s right, to be honest, with is why I’ve waitlisted for that school, but not appealed.

Those who are appealing, what evidence are you using? I am stumped!

we asked our senco for a letter in support but was told the school will be seen as biased if they support an appeal so absolutely no chance.

my child has adhd but has been on waiting list for support with CAMHS for almost a year, and therefore there are no other professionals that are working with us.

We are appealing on grounds of both chosen schools have good pastoral care and sports division and without both my child would struggle.

Not sure if it makes a strong case or not but we feel have to do something to fight back the shitty school we have been given.

there’s no info in my area about appeals/or additional places allocated. I just feel blind to it all

@Supamum3 We are appealing on similar grounds - ADHD - but the key point is the lesson length. I have other reasons, but that’s the main point. It is a valid point, and an area I am legitimately concerned about, but whether it’s enough to win an appeal, I’ve no idea. Also, I know you are supposed to appeal into your desired school and not against your offered one, but I have had to draw some direct comparisons, because it’s entirely relevant. I hope it will be seen as such, because it’s not a criticism of her offered school, which is actually pretty good.

Do you plan on bringing any evidence to support your claim?

how did you find out those details for the schools? We are finding quite generic info on the websites.

yes I hope your case is strong enough, it’s such a stressful situation for us parents

@Supamum3 i have letters of support from primary school and her consultant. All the schools round here have a section called The School Day, which details lesson, break and lunchtime lengths. Her offered school lessons are considerably longer than the school we want.

How is everyone doing? I'm having an optimistic weekend and I'm not quite sure why. 😁 I think I'm looking forward to submitting the appeal this week so I can stop obsessing over it.

I’m pleased that you seem to have all that you need, schools where we are not very helpful or supportive sadly. That’s odd that lesson lengths are different, I would have thought these were standardised accross all schools.

yes same here feeling positive, another round of offers is coming on Wednesday so I’m praying that we get our choice (long shot) so we won’t have to appeal. Deadline is shortly after that so we will get forms ready over next few days.

Glad you've had an optimistic weekend and well done.

We're due to hear the outcome of the reallocation by 29th March so counting the days... Trying to manage my own expectations in case it's not positive and we have to go on the official Waiting List.

We've already decided that we're not going to appeal so really it is just a game of patience for us. Couldn't sleep last night and it is distracting me from work. DD and DH are much more resilient than me.