Do we have grounds for appeal? Am I'm being overly optimistic...

[localnotail]

Hi everyone, I'm trying to sort things out in my head so feeling all stressed and been asking a few people on here via DM, which is probably not the way forward. So decided just to put it out here for people to comment on. It might be outing but I don't really care as I'm at the end of my tether with all this...

So here's what happened:

• We got our 4th choice school. Good school but huge and new
• Its 35 minutes bus ride and 10 minutes walk away from us - over 3km away
• All DS's friends ended up in 2 schools which were 1st and 2nd on our list – no idea how, some live further away than us. We are within 1km of both schools.
• DS was sure he will get into our preferred school, or at least the other two so now is massively depressed and upset, as you might imagine. None of his friends are going to the school we got. We used to live close to the no.1 choice school until 2 years ago, he grew up next to it and was always convinced that's where he is going.
• DS is quite immature and can’t travel by himself on a bus, we are working on it but at the moment he cant do it. He is quite terrified of the prospect - I know it will be ok eventually but I wont be able to help him even for a few months while he is getting used to it, as I work all day. I was hoping he will be ok with it by now but he is still fearful and I don't want to push him too hard.
• I’m a single parent, work full time, get back home at 7:30 and rely heavily on my Childminder. She will look after him after school and check he does homework but he will have to travel by himself to hers, on a different bus/ different route, also about 30-40 minutes.

I will, of course, accept the school we got, will try to make DM to feel good about it and accepts the fact he might have to go there; will work on the travelling issue and will make sure we are on the lists for all the three top preferred schools. However, going to the first preferred school would make both our lives so much easier...So I was advised to try an appeal too. But I'm not sure if I have any grounds for it... so this is what I have so far:

• I know this school take on kids during the year. They usually end up with a lot of kids leaving/ joining in the first year - as many as 10
• Our preferred school is not a big school, great academically and has a right balance of discipline and fun, which I think would benefit my kid immensely. It also have a great policy re homework, where they do it at school rather than home (not a club but compulsory). This would be ideal for him.
• Its 15 minutes walk from us and 10 minutes walk from the Childminder’s house, which would mean he could be much more independent straight away. Its not the same as taking the bus and crossing several busy roads.
• It will have all his friends in there, al the people he grew up with and this school takes kids from his primary school regularly. He already has friends there from years above him

With all that I understand my case is very slim, but do you think I should try appeal anyway? Like I said, I will call the LED and the school to make sure I’m on the waiting list etc. Is there anything else I could do?

I can imagine how gutted you must both feel and you have my total sympathy. Sadly, I doubt any of these reasons would be considered by an appeal panel. You mention that all his friends got in, even those living further away. This might be worth looking into - were the admissions criteria correctly applied.
Make sure you get his name on the waiting lists. There is likely to be some movement and you may still get a place this way. Good luck. 🤞

Do those living further away have siblings in the school? Or do you believe you would be in the same admission category as some of them?

I would would out what admissions category you think you should have been in, and ask the LEA what category they placed you in, and how far away the last admitted distance was for your category. If others living further away have got in (and no weird quirks about catchment areas or nearest schools coming into play) there might have been a mistake.

Otherwise, there isn't a strong case, imo, in your appeal facts. It is slightly unusual to have a childminder for a secondary school child. Are there SEN needs at play?

Male sure you get on the waiting list for all schools that would be better than the one you've been allocated. Good luck!

Yeh agree with others - make sure you are on the WL for all and any preferred schools (inc any that you did not apply to if there are any you prefer). Sounds as tho you may get a place that way.

And I also agree - probe the allocation carefully. If a number of people you know live further away yet still got in there are three possibilities:

• They have some need which pushes them up the list - school named on EHCP, LAC, sibling etc
• There is a catchment area issue - you can live near a school but not be in catchment and someone further away may be in catchment and get in
• The allocation was incorrectly handled

If it's the third you should be allocated a place. But tbh I would imagine it is the first one - it usually is. Not everyone broadcasts the fact that their DC is adopted.

As a matter of urgency you need to start supporting your ds to be more independent - little trip to the local shop, call round on a friend on his own - if he doesn't already do those things. YY a secondary school aged child at a childminder is very unusual.

Are you continuing with the childminder because you get home so late? What time do you start work - could you go with him on the bus to start with so he gets used to it?

So here's what happened:

We got our 4th choice school. Good school but huge and new
Its 35 minutes bus ride and 10 minutes walk away from us - over 3km away

Unfortunately the safe walking distance is 3 miles so bus rides are irrelevant.

All DS's friends ended up in 2 schools which were 1st and 2nd on our list – no idea how, some live further away than us. We are within 1km of both schools.

Check the criteria carefully. Should you have been given a place?

DS was sure he will get into our preferred school, or at least the other two so now is massively depressed and upset, as you might imagine. None of his friends are going to the school we got. We used to live close to the no.1 choice school until 2 years ago, he grew up next to it and was always convinced that's where he is going.

Unfortunately irrelevant

DS is quite immature and can’t travel by himself on a bus, we are working on it but at the moment he cant do it. He is quite terrified of the prospect - I know it will be ok eventually but I wont be able to help him even for a few months while he is getting used to it, as I work all day. I was hoping he will be ok with it by now but he is still fearful and I don't want to push him too hard.
I’m a single parent, work full time, get back home at 7:30 and rely heavily on my Childminder. She will look after him after school and check he does homework but he will have to travel by himself to hers, on a different bus/ different route, also about 30-40 minutes.

Unfortunately a panel can't take logistics into account

But I'm not sure if I have any grounds for it... so this is what I have so far:
I know this school take on kids during the year. They usually end up with a lot of kids leaving/ joining in the first year - as many as 10

The panel can't take possibilities into account.

Our preferred school is not a big school, great academically and has a right balance of discipline and fun, which I think would benefit my kid immensely. It also have a great policy re homework, where they do it at school rather than home (not a club but compulsory). This would be ideal for him.

This could help if you have evidence that he would struggle to do his homework at home.

Its 15 minutes walk from us and 10 minutes walk from the Childminder’s house, which would mean he could be much more independent straight away. Its not the same as taking the bus and crossing several busy roads.
It will have all his friends in there, al the people he grew up with and this school takes kids from his primary school regularly. He already has friends there from years above him

None of this can be taken into account

As it stands, your appeal reasons are weak. Work out why you were refused a place and look more closely at what your preferred school offers to get stronger grounds for appeal.

Thank you everyone. Re childminder - well, maybe it is unusual but it works for us. I don't have any family, she was looking after him since he was a baby so she is basically like a grandma to him. Its not a financial arrangement anymore, he goes there because he wants to; he says he would rather be there then on his own. Also, I get home at 7:30 and I can imagine him not eating and not doing homework, so at least when he's there he is fed and is not on his Xbox.

Thank you everyone who answered. I already had a feeling that appealing will be a waste of time; I was not going to do it but I had a couple of people telling me I have a case. I still have to speak to his primary school to see what htey would say, and to our Admissions, but probably would not bother with all the stress. I will get on the waiting list and see where this will get us.

I would also like to say that all kids are different and develop at a different pace. My DS is very immature and even though he is starting to get more independent - goes to shop by himself, or to see his friends in the park - he is not ready yet to travel by bus, on his own, through central London. We will work on it but see what happens - if he has to go into the school we got I might have to re-arrange my working hours to get him into routine.

Thanks anyway, at least this issue is clear to me now!

It doesn't mean you can't appeal - just that those grounds are weak. If you can find things that are better for your DS at your preferred school, they might give better grounds for appeal.

Make sure that you are on the waiting list(s). In my experience more people obtain places via waiting lists than win appeals.

I absolutely get why you are using the childminder by the way. And agree, I’d be worried about my child travelling through london. I watched my eldest walk up the road to her suburban school 20 mins away and it felt huge!

It does sound just possible that the admission criteria were applied wrongly. This doesn’t happen often and as a pp says it is more likely that there is a different hidden reason why those further away kids got a place above yours. But errors do happen.

I agree with asking the LEA for the furthest distance that got an offer (if you were hoping for a place on distance). Check how distance is measured for that school, crow flies or walking.

If you are closer than the furthest distance awarded a place, measured on the correct basis then this is a good ground for appeal.

All the reasons about friendships and childminder and bus don’t really come into it tbh.

Also get yourself on the WL for sure.

I would appeal as people don’t always accept their place and there will be a waiting list.

Appeals and waiting list are separate. Spare places will be allocated to the waiting list, and you don’t need to appeal to be on the waiting list.

I think you do have some good arguments. Not so much that the school is a long way away but for your particular DC who is emotionally immature it is not suitable as he is unable to use public transport independently (how would he get to this school if you can't take him?) The homework policy is also suitable for him. And you can talk about the effect on his mental health to be separated from the community he has grown up in.

Also I know people always say not to argue why the offered school isn't suitable - at my appeal I got asked why the offered school wasn't suitable so I was glad I had an answer!

Good luck!

I think you do have some good arguments. Not so much that the school is a long way away but for your particular DC who is emotionally immature it is not suitable as he is unable to use public transport independently (how would he get to this school if you can't take him?) The homework policy is also suitable for him. And you can talk about the effect on his mental health to be separated from the community he has grown up in.

I know the OP has accepted what pp have said but just in case anyone else is reading and might want to use this argument - my understanding is that the DC's inability to use public transport is absolutely not something that can be taken into account - unless there is a doctor's letter (for example) saying that in their opinion the child needs a specific local school to avoid issues. This would also be the case wrt to his mental health.

The appeal panel cannot consider how a child would get to school. That's not something they can take into account.

I would definitely check they have applied criteria properly bearing in mind those that live further away have been offered a place.
As for journey, it sounds like you are in London. Have you checked overland, tube routes as well as bus? My Ds’s journey would take that on the bus - it’s minutes on the overland. We spent a week practicing the journey together over summer hols. By September, he didn’t want me to come at all!

Thank you - yes, we checked but the route is basically bus only. Maybe cycle or walk as an alternative.

As for the kids living further away getting in - there could be a lot of reasons - sibling, SEN, better CAT banding. Who knows. But the outcome is basically this - my DS has been rejected from all the schools his friends got into. Its quite hard to digest.

The appeal panel cannot consider how a child would get to school. That's not something they can take into account.

I find it a bit shocking tbh.

In my case, they did take my DD's emotional immaturity into account and her mental health. I didn't provide any evidence mainly because the evidence would have had to come from her Primary and the LEA had instructed local schools to not provide any supporting information for appeals.

I often read on here the appeal panel won't take X into account or they won't want to hear about y and think that wasn't the case for me or others I have read about on here. So I think it's always worth going to appeal and to not take the information on here too literally.

Secondary age DC are usually held to be capable of making their own way to and from school, and of making new friends at their new school

It would only be a good point for an appeal if you have evidence (in addition to your own assertion) about why he cannot meet those expectations (eg doctor's assessment - including what he needs from a school - or from some other relevant professional)

You will also need to show why you need the appealed for school is the only one that meets his needs. Is there anything else about the school that makes it a supremely good fit for him?

There is loads of movement in London schools. Definitely put yourself down on waiting lists, especially if you are within 1k of each. Check whether they are operated by LA or school themselves. Also - as I say, do check the criteria has been applied correctly just in case there has been a mistake.

Kids grow up pretty fast once they get to secondary school. You might be surprised the amount your son matures by the time September come along.
I had the same worries with my DS, but we did the route a few times together, and then he did it on his own (I tracked him on Find my Phone), and he sent me a big smiling selfie in front of his new school.
Once he had done it a couple of times he was ready

Thank you so much. Your message made me feel so much better... ))

Maybe cycle or walk as an alternative

You said it's a bit over 3 km - which is about 2 miles. So likely to be about 40 mins walk.

I think that might be the best bet. A DC who isn't yet capable of use the bus independently is unlikely to be ready to be cycling in London traffic. And the difference between a 35 min bus ride + 10 min walk, and a 40 min walk is in favour of walking

He is actually very good at cycling - his dad is a cycling nut so they go on the long trips round London together (I cant cycle at all). But it is a long way away and he will have to go on big roads alone, without an adult making sure he is safe... I think bus is the better option, we will have to practice. I'm staying optimistic! ))