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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Secondary School Third Choice Allocated - can we appeal?

140 replies

kdandml · 02/03/2024 22:13

Hello, I hope someone can help.

We recently learned our daughter has been allocated her third choice school. This school is close to us but has a bad name, which is why we put it as third choice rather than first or second.

All her current school friends are going to her first choice, and our child is distraught. We had reasons for choosing the first choice as we did and we feel there is a grounds to appeal on those bases, however I am not sure that the distance rule has been applied correctly in any case.

Her friends do all live closer to <FIRST CHOICE> than us, but it seems that crucially, they don't live too close to <THIRD CHOICE>. We emailed the admissions team at the council to say we weren't happy with the offer and below is an extract from the reply, with the schools redacted. It appears that we have been penalised for living too close to a bad school, which is bizarre, Is this right?

Thanks in advance.

Extract from the reply:
<FIRST CHOICE SCHOOL> was oversubscribed and we had to apply the oversubscription criteria in order to allocate places. The last person offered a place at this school lived 2.56 miles in the nearest school criterion and you live 1.55 miles from the school in the distance criterion. <THIRD CHOICE SCHOOL> is your closest school, therefore your application was refused on distance. <SECOND CHOICE SCHOOL> was also over subscribed and the last person offered lived 1.82 miles in the distance criterion. You live 3.41 miles from this school and this application was also refused on distance.

OP posts:
PatriciaHolm · 11/03/2024 09:15

In this situation, when it is raised at appeal, do they have to consider all applicants affected, or only those who took it to appeal?

An appeals panel can only consider the cases that come to appeal. They can't order the school to offer places to all those affected.

prh47bridge · 11/03/2024 09:29

@Lougle Agree with @PatriciaHolm. The appeal panel can't help those who didn't appeal.

Lougle · 11/03/2024 09:44

@prh47bridge @PatriciaHolm Oh yes, agree re. panels. I just wondered if there was a wider obligation on the admissions authority to put right/acknowledge such a big error, rather than just dealing with those who had appealed.

It's such a massive error, and it isn't in @kdandml 's interests to make noise about it prior to appeal because the more people who appeal, the slimmer the chance of it being put right for their child. But it does make me think about those who are more vulnerable and less able to advocate for their children. They always seem to miss out the most and this system of only dealing with those who have been able to appeal (whether that be that they knew about how to exercise their right, or had the confidence to do so, or had the literacy skills to do so, etc.) reinforces that.

prh47bridge · 11/03/2024 09:59

The admissions authority should certainly put it right and admit those who would have got a place if the published oversubscription criteria should have been applied. At a minimum, they should put them to the head of the waiting list. Unfortunately, given that appeals are the only method for enforcing such things, there is no guarantee that they will.

Lougle · 11/03/2024 10:05

Well certainly this admissions authority seems to be completely ignorant of its obligations regarding admissions, so there's little hope of it happening outside of appeal, isn't there?

kdandml · 11/03/2024 11:29

I really appreciate all the posts and the info. I’ll update again

OP posts:
AmplePlumTraybake · 14/03/2024 14:25

Hi there,
We have just found out my DS has got 3rd choice school. He is beyond upset by this as his 2 older siblings are currently pupils (year 9 and 7) at his first choice school. My sons are so close in age that they have gone through their whole school lives up until this current year. I'm his brothers leaving the school my ds started suffering anxiety and panic attacks and we had a really troublesome 6 months of refusal to go to school. Him finding out he hasn't got their school has put him back to that place! I have declined the school and submitted an appeal. My question is on grounds of an appeal how successful do you think it likely my son will be offered a place? We are absolutely devastated. I am willing to fight so hard to get him in I have the support of his school his class teacher helped with the appeal and the head gave a supporting letter. I am just turning myself inside out that we will not get the result we want

jubdub · 14/03/2024 14:34

@AmplePlumTraybake you need to start your own thread for your question. Scroll to the top of the page and choose "Start New Thread" from the drop-down menu.

friskybivalves · 15/03/2024 18:31

@AmplePlumTraybakeAmplePlumTraybake I am absolutely no expert on this whereas others on these threads genuinely are. However I believe it is critical that you do in fact accept the school that you have been offered by the LA as they will say that they have discharged their legal responsibility to your DS by offering him a place, and have no need to offer him another one in any school anywhere. (experts: do please correct me if this is not the case.) I think what you should do is accept the place even in third choice school and ask to go on waiting lists plus appeal for the one you do want.

MarchingFrogs · 15/03/2024 19:11

friskybivalves · 15/03/2024 18:31

@AmplePlumTraybakeAmplePlumTraybake I am absolutely no expert on this whereas others on these threads genuinely are. However I believe it is critical that you do in fact accept the school that you have been offered by the LA as they will say that they have discharged their legal responsibility to your DS by offering him a place, and have no need to offer him another one in any school anywhere. (experts: do please correct me if this is not the case.) I think what you should do is accept the place even in third choice school and ask to go on waiting lists plus appeal for the one you do want.

Where no parental preferences can be met, the LA has a duty to offer a place at the nearest school to the applicant's home address which still has a vacancy once all time applicants (without a higher preference which can be met) have been offered a place there.

In this case, the LA was able to offer the OP's third preference school, so that process wasn't needed, nor will it be invoked just because the the OP turned down the place offered. And turning the place down certainly won't magic up a place at the first preference school; the OP is now reliant for that on being ranked top of the waiting list, should a place become available, or having an appeal upheld (unless they can prove as quickly as possible, if there was one, that an error in the allocation process cost them a place on March 1st, in which case, the place 'should' be offered now).

If the place turned down was also at an oversubscribed school, the OP will have to see how their DS can be added to the waiting list. Ditto any other schools not originally applied for, or remaining lower preferences that they might now decide aren't such a bad option after all, compared with the prospect of elective home education from September.

MarchingFrogs · 15/03/2024 19:13

Oops, sorry, referring to @AmplePlumTraybake there, not the OP...

kdandml · 15/03/2024 22:24

Hi, to be clear, we have not rejected the place she was offered. We were advised not to, nor would we want to.

OP posts:
kdandml · 07/09/2024 20:59

Hi all,

I wanted to post an update to confirm what happened in the appeal and the outcome, in case it helps anyone in future. Poeple often don't close things off but I felt that many of you are owed this. Sorry its so long, I hope it reads well for the knowledgeable but is here to help someone who isn't.

We went to appeal on two fronts, the first one was by putting the case across that the school was the best fit for her. This was the most important to me because the appeal was all about my child. We used several examples, prepared thoroughly and essentially created a presentation.

However, the second part was relevant too. I had raised the argument that the school and the LA appeared to be legally incorrect, demonstrating that they had not followed the process that they are required by law to follow ie the admissions code, in particular. Because I had pursued them hard for answers back in March, they had demonstrated their failures in email by failing to produce information which I had requested they supply - importantly, the document that ought to have been sent from school to LA by May of the prior year to confirm the process the school wanted the LA to follow.

A explained in the thread, the oversubscription criteria on the school website was incorrect and was not what was applied by the LA. The application of the "nearest school" criteria meant that it was impossible for anyone living to the west of the town to get into the school, because of the existence of another school slightly closer.

Prior to the appeal hearing, Ofsted paid a visit to the school my child had been offered a place for. Around the same time, I was contacted by the LA and asked to supply the legal arguments, which I did. This led to a legal representative being present at the hearing.

In part 1 of the hearing (where youre only allowed to speak generally and not in terms of your childs specific situation), I asked the school representative, who said he had been there 20 years, how many years had the school been oversubscribed and he told me every year it was. I asked him did he expect the school to be oversubscribed this time and he said yes. This allowed me to query their practice of inviting everyone to apply, and operating open days with Q&As that did not address the extreme likelihood that kids could be attending who had no chance of getting into the school.

At the end of part 1, the LA representative sought to summarise and said that she wished to add that all processes had been correctly followed and all appeals ought to be rejected. I objected and asked if i was able to say why i objected to that statement, because the legal argument could theoretically apply for everyone. They asked me not to elaborate until part 2, and ended the meeting at that point.

In part 2, the legal representative was there again. I made it clear that the appeal was about my child and not a legal argument, and focussed on a number of areas, linking positives on the school website to how that suits my child, in terms of values, extra curricular activities, location in relation to other facilities in the town my child uses, I also brought up friendships (despite people saying dont) becasue i felt i could create a good case. I felt that the appeals panel were engaged, I did make a strong case and would love to know if the case had won without the following. I genuinely think it would have.

I then raised the argument that there was a "reasonable expectation of a place" (which is that had the website policy been applied, as it was legally required to be, then she would have been admitted) and was a bit surprised at the forcefulness of the response from the LA representative. That said, the representative was the same person who i had been repeatedly disagreeing with by phone and email so perhaps I could have expected it. Eventually she accepted that the school had got it wrong in their website publication but insisted the LA were not at fault. I explained that the LA absolutely were also at fault because the school didnt supply the relevant policy at the correct time, so the LA should have chased the school for it rather than rely on a vague email from 3 years previously saying which process to use (amazingly they had supplied me this email, dated 3 years ago. I was therefore also able to use it to suggest that this error had been in existence for 3 years. I got this through constantly chasing for evidence of what they had used in determining what policy they would apply - so be persisitent. Hound them for information, they have to give you it and if they dont you can demonstrate your emails went ignored - which theyre also not allowed to do).

The LA rep then said the policy that was applied was the policy the school sought to apply and on that basis the only error was that the school didnt put it on the website. She asked me that if, on that basis, I accepted that it actually made no material difference anyway and I was going to repeat that the policy that must be applied must be the one on the website but before i could speak she said "what difference would it have made if you knew beforehand whether your child would be offered a place or not". A gift which allowed me to blindside everyone and say "we'd have moved house, we could have been 3x the distance from the school but at the other side of town and she'd have been offered a place. Thats correct isnt it?" The answer of course was yes.

The last bit.

What i deliberately omitted throughout the thread above, for obvious reasons, is that from the outset my daughter had wanted to go to the school that is nearest us and not the one i wanted her to go to. The place she was offered was the one she wanted. It was the second choice on her application because we'd talked her into choosing the one I wanted her to go to as the first. My biggest concern over supporting her preference was the disastrous Ofsted of 2019. All the noises were that the school had turned the corner but I just felt that perhaps my child was choosing the near one for fear that she wouldnt get into the one she "really" wanted to go to, the one where most of her friends were going. I needed to give her the option in order that we could really understand what she wanted.

The appeal also came about because I am a stickler for people casually not following proper procedures through laziness and with no consequences. I strongly believe that the reality is, had the school followed their published criteria as they are required by law to do, the names list on the intake would have been massively different. I think that's appalling. I wanted to force them to have to do things properly in future, especially as they had handled the matter abysmally as well, so pushing this all the way was what I felt I had to do.

I could be more explicit and specific but I won't be, although suffice to say that by the time we'd got to appeal, let alone gone through the appeals process, we had genuine concerns about the direction of travel of the school. I hope they address it.

Anyway, the appeal won, we discussed it and she rejected it. Then later, as if to vindicate everything, the Ofsted report came back as Good with some outstanding elements.

She started a few days ago and she is very happy with her choice, as are we. Thanks again to everyone for their help, what an amazing force this site is. I strongly believe that any appeal can be won if you commit to win it and explore all angles.

:)

OP posts:
Lougle · 07/09/2024 21:39

@kdandml I'm so glad you have the school you are happy with and that the panel saw the error.

I have to disagree with your last paragraph, but I'm glad you were able to win your appeal.

kdandml · 07/09/2024 21:54

Lougle · 07/09/2024 21:39

@kdandml I'm so glad you have the school you are happy with and that the panel saw the error.

I have to disagree with your last paragraph, but I'm glad you were able to win your appeal.

I assure you, she is happy!
lol
nah I get what you mean - perhaps theyre not always winnable. But you have to try.

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