State primary - joining Independent in Y7 - Will she be behind?

[Devicey]

Our daughter starts at an independent school in September and is hugely excited. She's worked so hard to get in and is very academic.

She'll be doing 2 modern languages and Latin.

I'm just wondering - do prep school children learn languages at prep?

I went to a state grammar so pretty much everyone in my class was a total beginner other than the basic holiday stuff which is very much how our daughter is.

Not sure if she's going to be the only child whose French stops with Bonjour/Merci etc.

My kids go to an independent. They start French in Reception and add in Spanish in year 3. From year 7 they also add in German / Latin before they then decide to drop any for gcse.

My children went from state to private. Neither had done any languages.

They just started in yr7. The school split the children into those who had done a language and those who hadn’t.

At the end of yr 7 they all took the same test and my children did well and took on another language in yr8.

They were not the only ones who had not done a language and soon got to the same level as those that did. She will not be behind.

My DC are at prep doing languages. One is in Yr3 doing French but it’s not too serious yet.

Other in Yr 6 doing French- they choose one MFL and stick to it from Yr 5 at his school. They are expected to study for it and do written and spoken assessments. Many children in the class have regular trips to France- skiing and summer hols. I know some even have a second home there.

He also studies Latin in Year 6 as it’s compulsory.

I’d say the most marked difference I notice is the maths content. DS is doing algebra in Yr 6. By Yr 5 he was doing content that is not covered in the state primary system. If your DD has studied for entrance exams she may already be confident though.

Both mine went from state primary to Selective Independent secondaries at Y7. They were absolutely fine with their very limited French, their level of maths etc.
We had lots of friends at Preps telling us their schools were working at 2 years above state primaries. Generally not true! ( and in fact one secondary head told us that in terms of English and maths often the state school children they were getting had a better grasp of the maths basics due to curriculum changes).
If they passed the exams to get into the school they will be absolutely fine!

Having worked in both state and prep I would agree some are definitely working 2 years above in some subjects. I do find the English instruction quite thorough in the state primary system though.

A bright child who has passed the exams could certainly catch up though.

It depends on your child though whether if will knock their confidence to be behind on something.

One of mine definitely struggled with confidence transitioning to from state to private in KS2. In maths he found it difficult going from being the top of the class at state to being behind most of the boys at his prep.

State primary to private secondary here. DD is Yr 7 and academically isn't behind at all, in fact top set maths + English, History + classics. Middle set MFL.
The main areas she was behind in were sports and music. The preppies who moved up to Yr 7 and in her classes are way ahead in all sports and music but she is starting to catch up. Unfortunately means she doesn't get a look in at either Team A or B for matches but given the wide range of sports (hockey, netball, basketball, squash, swimming, running, gymnastics).she is slowly finding her niche in swimming and running and is already in top groups for those.

Mine went from state to independent with very little French and no other language exposure. The fact that languages aren’t assessed in the 11+ suggests to me that schools don’t place huge importance in disparity between foreign language ability at that stage. They’ll stream them early I expect and no reason why your clearly bright child won’t catch up quickly.

No worries, went from prep with 1 modern language with 3 different supply teachers and nothing for only 1 year before Covid. DC caught up with new 2 MFL and Latin. The teachers will be used to teach everyone at different levels and not pair in speaking sessions with those that had years of a certain MFL.

Yes this ^^

My DC2 went from state primary to a very academic independent in Y7 and has been absolutely fine. If anything, it's been an advantage to him that he hadn't previously studied any language other than basic French - he was intrigued by the idea of learning Latin, loved it and is now doing it as a GCSE option along with Greek. Admittedly this is purely anecdotal but many of DS's friends who came from a prep background dropped Latin as soon as they could because they'd hated it in their previous school and found it totally boring!

The one 'advantage' I would say a prep school child might have would be sport/music experience, simply because a prep school will be able to offer far more than a state primary in this regard.

But academically, if a primary educated child has passed an entrance exam for a school then essentially they are able enough to thrive in the school, and they will soon catch up/find their place within their cohort.

Thanks all.

Glad to hear we don't need to worry too much about.

Sport is very much not her forte (other than dance) so hopefully being even further behind than she is at her state school wont completely destroy her confidence!

It is compulsory to learn MFL at KS2 in state primaries so she must've done something- even if it's just half an hour a week of French?

Many years ago but I went the other way - from elite boarding school to local comp in Y9 and was utterly stunned that I wasn’t the brightest kid there - by a long chalk 😂

If you are worried, you can also do a little course or prep during the summer to prepare. Also, a lot of the kids will have choice in a language and might select a new one. At my dd private secondary school they have to do Mandarin, Latin and a chosen language. They are not allowed to select a language they are fluent in. DD is fluent in one language, so I think it helps with Latin and her chosen language, Spanish. She is not a fan of Mandarin (perhaps because it is more difficult for her). You can easily teach what they would teach in prep schools over the summer if you are worried. Which is the basics....I am thinking greetings - Hello. How are you? My name is. I am X years old. Colours. Numbers. But really, nothing to worry about. My dd came from a state school and sure at first she was a little surprised about the change of pace and being around so many other bright girls (she goes to an academically selective school). But she quickly got used to it and enjoys it. And she was told she is working ahead in English, so will be given different work sometimes.

I would say what a pp said that music and sport def seems to be the private school's specialties. We tried to get our dd into music when she was younger, but it was a struggle so we dropped it. She is now doing piano lessons at school. For sports she always did sports out of school so that was fine, but for example she might do the sport once a week out of school, but the private school kids did the sport once or twice a week in school and once a week out. But there are a range of teams A to F and DD is on the C teams for both sports she plays :) So there def is a wide range of sport ability and nothing to worry about. There are some amazing county level girls and some beginners. If your dd wants to do a sport she could always prepare by doing camps during the term breaks and summer. DD started hockey for the first time when starting secondary and loved it, so we signed her up to some camps and outside hockey so she could catch up. She was put on the C team, which she was pleasantly surprised about.

I would just make sure your dd understands, if she is going to an academically selective school, that she will notice there are a lot of bright kids and she might not be the brightest in the class anymore (if that was the case previously). Also, explain that she will catch up quickly if she has not learned something already. Some dc will also have tutors to get ahead (I know this via family who have kids in competitive private schools. I was told to get a tutor over summer to get ahead...and I declined as I am not bothered to get ahead and want dd to learn at her own pace, not be accelerated just to get ahead). One struggle I find is my dd was used to coasting and primary, so I am not sure her study habits or organizational skills are quite there yet. Although, the school does not say anything, so I assume no news is good news.

If the school thought there would be a problem, they wouldn’t have let her in! I wouldn’t worry too much.

MFL is part of the National Curriculum in KS2 although in my experience state schools tend to do Spanish and selective schools French (although certainly not always the case). In terms of Maths, I think there’s something about breadth vs depth. At my school I never teach content that isn’t in the National Curriculum for their year but the more able children are challenged to think more deeply and to reason and articulate clearly. They may not have studied Y7 work in Y6 but they will have a very solid grasp of number and a love of Maths. I hope this means that after an initial blip they actually end up better Mathematicians.

I really wouldn’t worry. They will either start from scratch in year 7, or do some sort of accelerated course for those without the language. Both my DC did French and Spanish from Year 3, but plenty of kids joined them for senior school and there’s no obvious difference now they are older.

This also confused me. Bonjour/au revoir is our first lesson for Y3. Our Y6s can certainly speak, read, understand and write a lot more than that.

@SarahAndGoose My DC theoretically had French once a week in KS2 but for whatever reason (class size, unmet needs, teaching, huge range of ability) they never got beyond colours and numbers.

On the up side, this didn’t matter at all when they went from their state primary to a selective private secondary. They had a carousel of languages and chose the ones they enjoyed most (not French, as it turned out).

As others have said, it’s the sport and the music where you can really see the difference between prep and primary educated DC. Also maths in Y7, to some extent, but the school plans for that and uses that first year to even things up.

Some parents are very keen for their DC to excel (especially in maths) and so tutor, but I see that as pointless. What’s the point of paying twice to learn the same stuff and come top in tests?

My DD was at private prep and they used Duolingo for language extra learning so if you know the language she is going to be learning this might be a fun way to get started. Recently I have used it to learn some Italian.

MfL is a compulsory KS2 subject - so she will have learned a language.

Lots of state schools also do Latin (some instead of an MfL as it is allowed as an alternative and some as well).

It varies a lot. Some prep schools have a particular focus on certain MFL and a lot of expats are part of international families so they might be fluent in one or more MFL.

Sports and music have more access in private Preps but it seems like for the children in state primary a lot of parents suppliment too. So in private secondary you will see some top music/sport talent from either backgrounds but for the normal participant level private students are better but most schools will make sure there are enough teams to be inclusive for everyone.

Surely this is a question for the school, not the internet? It could be that this specific school has 80% intake from one prep that excels at MFL… or 80% from state primaries that do the bare mandated minimum with a non language class teacher.

You’re paying money to this school! If you have concerns about her confidence being destroyed you should be asking the people taking your money to reassure on their strategy to make sure that doesn’t happen!

When the youngest in our family moved from a run of the mill independent school to a highly superior ( it really was!) boarding prep, the prep sent a copy of their main Latin text so child could begin and catch up over the Summer holiday prior to starting at the school. Great fun for me as I’d loved Latin, so we had a fun time conjugating verbs on coastal walks.

It was all fine. The Latin teacher engaged in a brisk period of revision for the whole class at the start of term and our newbie found themselves perfectly able to keep up.

If your new school doesn’t mention any issues you must ask! They’ll want her to make the best possible start, so should be ready with help and suggestions if necessary.

My DC moved from state to independent at Y7.

The kids from the prep had two years of Spanish where it was totally new for my DC. They had also had a LOT more French teaching than my DC had at state primary.

So yes, he was "behind". But the school he joined took about 1/3 new entrants, so he was "behind" in a large group! He'll catch up, or he won't.

He knows that different kids are naturally better at some things than other kids, and he knows that some kids are better because they work harder at some things than other kids, and he knows that some kids have had more opportunity to learn/practice things.

Don't stress about it. Just teach your child that it's ok to be less good at things because of lack of talent/effort/opportunity. All your DC can do is make the most of the talent/effort/opportunity that they have access to.

@Devicey DD went from a state primary to a selective school at 11. She had done almost no French (colours, animals, hello etc) and it didn't matter a bit. They started from the basics in all the languages offered as they were well aware that some children would not have done languages previously.