Large secondary experiences when DC need extra support

[Airworld]

I would like to hear of your DC’s experiences in recent years of very large secondary schools (1500 pupils) where their DC has needed additional academic support (no EHCP etc) please.

DS(9) is in y4 and has extra support at school for spelling, writing, and reading fluency and as yet neither the school nor us can figure out why as he has an excellent memory for other things. A basic dyslexia screening test came back as low probability, however the school has said they can get an Ed Psych assessment done and we go from there as to what happens next, pay for a full dyslexia assessment etc.

My point is that DS has needed extra support for the past 3 years, is nowhere near eligible for an EHCP etc, and I am worried that in a huge school he will be left to drown academically. Of course we can get a tutor but it’s important that a school understands and supports him. DS could of course suddenly catch up by y6 but that’s not looking likely.

So, what are people’s experiences with large secondaries where your DC has needed extra academic support but does not have an EHCP or any diagnosed learning difficulty please?

We can’t afford a private school. There are 4 possible secondaries locally that we would get into but 2 we have discounted for various reasons, 1 is ok but would be a huge faff to get to, which leaves this huge secondary near us. I’ve also heard a lot of grumblings about disruptive behaviour in class (although the 2021 Ofsted comments on calm, good behaviour of pupils), academically the school is bang on average for Progress 8/Attainment 8, Ofsted Good etc.

My DS does has an EHCP, even with that it was difficult to get him the support he needed when in secondary.
My DS is in year 11 now and I would say that it’s got even worse. Special schools in my LA are massively over subscribed so children are being placed into mainstream instead.

If you can afford it pay for an Ed psych assessment, it will be far more thorough than one done by an LA EP. It will make it much easier to see what your DSs needs are and what support you should be pushing for. You may find it supports the need for an EHCP.

He may have SEN, therefore he does meet the criteria for an EHCNA. Granted you will probably be refused and have to appeal but that isn’t a reason not to do it. Indeed because you will probably have to appeal it’s probably best to start now so it’s all in place for secondary.

tbh @Airworld the chances of targeted SEN support are no greater IME in a smaller secondary than a larger one.

1500 pupils is not really huge (relatively - I know if must seem big) - if that includes a sixth form it's only about 250 students in a year. Huge is the schools local to me with 2500+ students.

My DS was in a school of 1200 and tho he did eventually get a diagnosis of LD, he was supported before that by the SEN team - for example he dropped a GCSE option and had time in SEN support. Not saying that would be needed for your DS - just that it's not usually the case that the only DC to get support are the ones with EHCP. School spotted that he was struggling and acted accordingly.

Often in a bigger school there will be a greater volume of possible support so it may be better than a smaller school in that way. There's disruptive behaviour in most state comprehensive schools in 2024 unfortunately.

What makes you think he wouldn't get an EHCP? The bar for assessment is low - may have SEN; may need provision for SEN.

Mind you, schools often try to dissuade you, but you can apply yourself and you have a lot of evidence that extra provision has been needed.

My DD is in year 6. We put in the request in October year 5 and two tribunals later do not yet have the EHCP and had to use the usual secondary application process.

So year 4 is a good time to start.

If you want him to have support then you need an EHCP. It would also need to be very specific in terms of the support required or it will be worthless. Without an EHCP your chance of support is virtually nil. Secondary schools have little in class support except for students with very detailed EHCP plans. Start now if you think he needs it as whatever the primary is providing will not be provided without the paperwork.

My children attended a large secondary, they had one class of 26 pupils specifically for those that need additional support so that the TA moved classes with them all. It meant the TA got to know who needed support with what and the smaller class meant more chance of teacher/student support too. The pace was slower etc. You wouldn't know this from looking from the outside. My advice would be to contact the schools but be aware school allocation day is fast approaching where they will be swamped.

@Phineyj the school said a while ago that his needs would never meet the threshold to qualify for an EHCP.

I’ve read so many threads here over the years and the nightmares parents go through to get an EHCP for their DC who have significant, proven SEN and unmet needs and they are turned down repeatedly. So, I have no faith whatsoever that DS would ever meet any threshold for an EHCP. However, we will go ahead with the Ed Psych assessment and dyslexia assessment and see what the outcome is and go from there.

This secondary does have a Shine autism unit onsite so I would like to hope that they have staff experienced with various SEN needs.

It seems that there is different opinions on what support is available at secondary level; we may find we have to have a tutor I guess.

What is the nature of the extra support?

Does he have interventions? (Ie goes out of class maybe once a day or twice a week to do spelling/etc with a ta either individually or with a small group?)

Does he have a ta with him? If so is this only for specific subjects?

Most secondaries are set up so that the "extra support" happens through timetabled classes.

So for example in many secondaries students who come in and have low scores for English or maths drop a language and have extra maths and English lessons in that slot. So they are getting "intervention" and extra teaching in the basics but it's a lot less obvious than primary.

This also usually carries on at gcse when they do one less gcse than the others and keep going with extra maths and English.

1:1 Interventions do happen but they tend to be prioritised and on specific things eg a child who is visually impaired would get extra sessions on using their iPad for example.

Some ridiculously high percentage of parents (97% or thereabouts) are successful at appeal. Schools tend not to be that knowledgeable about the law, and the law is on your side for this. So if you are prepared to appeal from what you have said you should be successful.

The ed psych will do the dyslexia assessment, there’s no need for a separate one.

I agree with a pervious poster that schools can be very negative about EHCPs.
My DS very clearly needed one and the SENCO said no chance he would be approved - this was in a meeting with a speech therapist and Ed psych who sat on EHCP panels. He got one without any issues.

The issues we had at secondary were that the 1-1 support DS was getting funding for was shared with other children in the class, one in particular had behavioural difficulties so the TA was used to calm her down meaning DS didn’t get the academic support needed. The 1-1 wasn’t written into the EHCP and I was told it never would be - I got it written in with a fight.
Another issue was that DD needed a laptop - this was in the EHCP. He had to collect it in the morning, return it at break, collect again after break etc. He has organisation issues so often didn’t get it.

@Octavia64 yes he’s been having interventions in small groups with TA’s since y1. Initially it was phonics support but that has now stopped since mid-y3 as he is now at reading ant his expected age. His fluency in reading aloud needs improving so he goes to a group session for that during assembly.

For spelling he has separate spellings to the standard weekly ones that are given to the class, and goes to a small group with a TA to work on these. He also gets bespoke spellings on Spelling Shed for homework. Basically, he is still spelling phonetically ie because = bcos, come = cum, what = wot

For writing he has small group sessions to work on structuring sentences etc too.

The school says that as his reading improves then his spelling and writing will follow, but it’s simply not following the same trajectory at all.

He is slowly improving with all this extra help, plus his handwriting was dire but again, with extra help at school this is really improving.

So, we’re not sure what’s going on with him. DH wonders if he can’t be bothered to learn and remember as if something really interests him then he has remember very easily. He loves maths and does really well, and is meeting expected in all other areas of the curriculum.

Ok, so a couple of comments:

He sounds exactly like the kids that are in our extra maths and English and drop a language groups.

So they have five hours over two weeks of additional teaching in maths and english, split 3:2. We have primary and phonics specialists who teach the groups.

This is a very very common model that a lot of secondaries have, and even more secondaries are recruiting primary trained teachers as so many kids are coming up behind.

So effectively his interventions will continue they will just be a timetabled class.
The secondary might not talk about this on their website but if you ask at open evening the teachers will know whether this happens or not.

Students who really struggle with writing and whose handwriting is very bad are often permitted to use a laptop, although many secondaries these days force everyone onto chromebooks so he will be able to type on those.

In some circumstances he can do his GCSEs on the laptop - my son did. There's paperwork but it's not normally too much of an issue.

In addition, there are some things you can do to help him now. Wordshark is a very good phonics & reading and writing programme that will help his spelling. We just bought it and he did 10 mins a day on the computer. I think it might have gone subscription now.

My son also used nessy fingers to learn to type, it's a program based on phonics that teaches typing and phonics and spelling at the same time.

@Airworld my DS has multiple issues including dyslexia.
He took a while to learn to read but once it clicked he was a good reader. His spelling (age 15 now) is still appalling, he hand writing is poor but has improved with intervention. His writing fluency increased greatly when typing instead of handwriting, verbally he has a great vocabulary but it’s lost when writing. His maths is good. He’s great at playing strategy type games, beyond others his age.
A spikey profile is common in SEN and usually points towards specific learning difficulties such as dyslexia. It doesn’t seem likely that he’s lazy as your husband suggests.

As a teacher I've taught in schools ranging from about 900 students to nearly 2000. I'm not sure any of those schools would have handled this any differently- I don't think size plays a huge part in SEN support at secondary school?

If the school sets, he will likely be in lower sets for some subjects. These are not as small as they once were, but hopefully <20 students, which means he will get a bit more teacher support than he otherwise would. The teacher will likely tailor lessons to those with lower reading/writing abilities and go at a pace which suits the students in the class. If he is very lucky, there may be a TA in the class for some lessons who may be able to offer some additional support too.

In some schools, if he is in the very bottom set for English, he may do extra English rather than MFL.

In most schools, he could be in a higher set for maths, his English abilities wouldn't hold his maths back.

If he is highlighted as having particular areas of weakness, he may be lucky and get some intervention in tutor time once a week- this probably will be for a half term at a time, rather than for the whole school year.

Some students with these sorts of difficulties benefit from using a laptop in lessons, and this can be offered by the secondary school. He wouldn't need an ECHP for this. Is this something his primary school could/have tried?

I would start going to secondary open days next year, and ask specifically about SEN support and what support your DS might be able to access. I'd visit both the possible options, even if one is a faff.

I wouldn't assume a small school would offer better support though- smaller schools also have smaller budgets, which can mean there are less resources available.

The psychologist administered dyslexia test covers something like 14 different areas. Reading ability and good memory is really only a small part.
the result interpretation is very interesting. Often people will have really good results in one area to balance out struggles in the others.
the EHCP can then include things like extra time in tests to laptop use of notes and typing/dictating vs writing papers.
I highly recommend following up with the educational psych.

OP, as well as having a daughter with SEN, I'm a secondary teacher and have students with EHCP in my GCSE and A-level classes (I only teach the older ones -- we have lots of students with EHCP in the younger year groups also).

I have learnt a great deal about EHCP in the last 18 months and one of the things I have learnt is that the teaching profession are not very well informed about them. And that includes SENCOs (who do not necessarily have any training). It really is best to read the SEN Code 2014 yourself (it's freely available online) along with the advice from independent charities such as IPSEA.

The amount of misinformation, well meaning but misguided advice, ignorance and actual lies I have come across has been really mind-boggling.

My advice to you is that you are your son's best advocate and knowledge is power.

Do not believe anything you are told without carefully checking.

Do not believe anything you are told without carefully checking.

If there is one thing you take from the thread, OP, it should be this.

Unfortunately, some schools and LAs incorrectly tell parents their DC won’t get or don’t need an EHCP, but their parents go on to successfully request one themselves, even if they have to appeal.

The threshold for an EHCNA is a) has or may have SEN, and b) may need SEN provision to be made via an EHCP.

DS clearly needs a comprehensive education psych assessment.

My school has around 1300 students and is not badly off. Realistically, students only get laptops to use if parents provide them (outside of formal invigilated exams).

That's the norm. It's not because of the expense of the equipment so much as lack of money to maintain and replace it.

DD (15) with dyslexia (on the severe end) and ADHD, and in a huge school of almost 3,000 students.

No EHCP - with hindsight probably should have tried to get one, but by the time we realised how bad her dyslexia really was, Covid lockdowns had hit and she was in Y6 and it was all a bit difficult to sort.

Ed Psych report has been very useful. She also recommended that DD learn to touch type and move to a laptop as soon as possible. Took 2 weeks to teach her during lockdown and she moved to secondary as that as her normal way of working. (We have found an iPad with e-pen and keyboard case is lighter, cheaper and better than a laptop).

Huge school has been a big plus - they have met many kids with a similar profile to DD before, huge teaching staff and there are enormous numbers of sets (they are set for pretty much everything). This has meant they can tweak which set DD is in to fit well with her abilities - she scores very high on CATS/NVR/VR but has a very spiky profile and it takes her longer to understand concepts than people might expect from her raw scores.

So she's in a set for maths with clever kids that need to move at a slightly slower pace than the whizzy maths geniuses in two sets above. In a smaller school it would have been much harder to find a set that was at the right pace and the right level.

DD doesn't do languages - she had the option of doing extra maths and English but uses the time for something else (school had the flexibility to arrange a bespoke curriculum due to the size and number of options classes going on).

I've found it's generally easier to sort things out myself - we provided the laptop and then iPad etc and then just see the SEN dept if there's a real problem.

We tried all the programmes for improving spelling in Primary and got nowhere, so DD just has Grammarly installed and we focused on editing skills instead. I pity the poor examiners who will be marking her GCSE scripts as she spells phonetically, but she can use editing software in the real world so we basically have given up on attempting to teach that.

She has hypermobile fingers so writing is very painful and difficult so she just uses a keyboard for everything and gets Siri to write text messages etc. There's masses of tech like reading pens and speech to text software out there, as well as audio books and online programmes that will read the screen to you. We just embraced these - with the ADHD I am very careful to pick my battles!

So yep, I would go for as large a school as possible as they tend to be more flexible and have more resources.

This is really timely as we are in a very similar position Airworld.

To those of you who have been through the process how much input does the current school have into the ECHP process? To date any investigations (dyslexia assessments as well as ADHD/ASD assessment with different professionals) have been like pulling teeth to get time with the school, return questionnaires etc.

The school will be asked for information, but you don’t need to wait for the school to request an EHCNA. You can do it yourself. On their website, IPSEA has a model letter you can use. The process is then governed by statutory timescales.

@Airworld

Phonics is a confusing disaster for some dc. My dd was hobbled by it and only improved in reading and spelling when I took it into my own hands and did completely different tactics.
Look into other ways of spellings like root words and different strategies unfortunately the school probably wouldn't understand these and will be giving you basic stuff.

@maybeCornish of course what the school says is important, but it's not the be-all and end-all. For one thing, some children (like my own) are "fine in school" because they mask. This can become much more apparent with the transfer from primary to secondary.

EHCP support thread no. 2 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4989146-ehcp-support-thread-no-2 I run this support thread, in case it's useful.

Thank you. This is exactly what is currently happening with one of our DC. Masks at school and is struggling elsewhere. I'm trying to avoid/lessen the crisis point of secondary transfer as it will be brutal but it's been a hard slog up to now to get much leverage. We are getting an in-school observation from the clinical psychologist to prove our points against the school.

I plan to apply for the ECHP assessment myself for both children but everyone at the school seems to be part time, new or otherwise engaged with high needs children so others are falling through the cracks. I'm part of a group of parents having to work with the school for extra support and acknowledgment of kids with additional needs but it's hard work.