North London Secondary state for my DS

[cookiesandsleep]

Hello dear mums.
I am beginning to worry about our school choices for our son(8). We live near islington town centre and so trying to narrow down possible secondary choices for him is difficult.
He is into math, arts and music. Not very competitive and tends to play with girls mostly. He can feel overwhelmed in loud, rowdy places.
The local secondaries are all challenging with bullying, gang activities and poor behaviour. Ofcourse I worry about him being picked at in secondary or not being able to find friends. We are not close to SMM to get accepted by distance and passing the test is making me anxious. We do not have a back up plan at the moment.

Could anyone recommend state schools in north London that is largely middle class. I know Fortismere and Alexandra Palace are considered to be good performing with good behaviour but maybe things are changing? Are there any new schools that are starting to attract middle class parents in the area?

We are considering moving to be closer to the school although not sure how we would do that with owning a property.

Any advise or personal experience would be appreciated.

Dame Alice Owen but you have to live on the doorstep in order to have a chance to get in via catchment.

Wren Academy in Finchley but it's very strict from what I hear.

You can move near SMMA and avoid having to take the entrance exam. Unless you want to change neighbourhood.

Could anyone recommend state schools in north London that is largely middle class.

You seem to be using "middle class" as a proxy for "well behaved". I hope you realise how offensive this is?

We are considering moving to be closer to the school although not sure how we would do that with owning a property.

You sell your house and buy another one that is nearer.

I'd suggest asking MN to put "North London" in the title as you are more likely to get information from people who know the area.

Yeh I agree with @shepherdsangeldelight - you do know, @cookiesandsleep that middle class is not the same thing as well behaved? Middle class children also behave badly.

I don't know the area you are in I'm afraid but if you want to move you need to sell your house to make clear the move is permanent

I think she’s using middle class as a proxy for more interested parents, social mores which value education and hence more collective aspirations …

OP I understand what you're saying because I know the area. To the other poster - of course middle class children behave badly, and of course the vast majority of working class kids are good kids, but we're not talking about general bad behaviour here, we're talking worries about knife crime and gang culture.

Highbury Grove does take a lot of middle class kids, though the size and location mean it has its fair share of problems. I don't know where in Islington you are but Stoke Newington has quite an artsy reputation so being a boy into arts and music would not be unusual there, I don't think. Unfortunately Islington is better for girls because there are two good single sex schools for them.

All schools have bullying, private schools as much as state, it's about how the school deals with it. Don't panic at this stage. You could try going to the open evenings in Sept to have a look around, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised (just go on schools' websites because you need to book).

I wouldn't write off your chances in the SMMA test if your DS shows an aptitude for that kind of thing, but I agree that you need a Plan B. It's early though, he's only 8!

Yes as an Islington resident you would be eligible to try for DAO https://damealiceowens.herts.sch.uk/sixth-form/admissions/secondary-transfer/local-priority-areas/

If you are Catholic then Finchley Catholic High admitted to almost 7.5 miles distance this year which would possibly cover you? https://www.barnet.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-10/Allocation%20Table%202023.pdf

You need to live on the doorsteps of Fortismere and AP to get in, both are massively oversubscribed.

Also I don’t know how long you’ve lived here but I’ve never heard anyone refer to “Islington town centre” !

Thanks for all the suggestions. We live near Islington Town Hall.
I am planing to book open visits to all neighbouring schools but wonder if there are some further schools that might work for us.

Will check Stoke Newington School thank you.

My DD is at Stoke Newington school. I wouldn't say it's massively middle class. I mean yes, there are MC kids there, but it's very much "mixed intake". I like the diversity there, actually; DD is learning to get along in all kinds of situations, and with people outside our neighbourhood bubble.

There seems to be quite a lot of firefighting going on at the school, but the staff are mostly great (DD agrees). And the stage & art programmes are excellent.

Would try for Dame Alice Owen's if you are an Islington resident - it's a great school. Parents get caught up with how 'competitive' it is, but it's not quite the case for Islington kids, because they HAVE to take 20 kids per year from the borough. If he's academic or musical then you stand a fairly good chance - under those terms, it's not not remotely as tough to get in as it is to academic privates.

APS and Fortismere are both good - APS much stricter on behaviour than Fortismere so the school environment is probably a bit calmer.

Highbury Grove/Stoke Newington/Acland Burghley are 'okay'. Have some real strengths in certain areas but struggle in others. Teaching mixed, and so is the parental makeup - a fair amount of 'middle class' families, but also a fair amount of London issues surrounding gang culture.

The 20 places that Dame Alice Owen reserves for Islington applicants make no practical difference because so many apply from Islington. It is as hard to get in from Islington as from other eligible postcodes. The school has done a lot to advertise itself to the Islington parents (there is an 'Islington Room' in the open day), but the commute from Islington is not easy at all. You have to get to Finsbury Park for the overground and then there is a substantial walk/bus ride in Potter's Bar. In winter months, it is harder. Several pupils from Islington do it, but for many it is a deal-breaker.

@hatcher - totally get your point re distance from Islington - but this is another thing that makes it easier to get in if you are applying from Islington! The distance is a deal breaker for many parents who don't want their kids to face a massive commute for several years - plus there are other good state schools in the area and lots go private for senior school.

Because the school HAVE to take 20 from Islington, a candidate is going to face much less competition than those who are trying to get in from all the other eligible postcodes combined. A kid who is competing for an academic place or a musical place from Islington has a much better chance, because they are only competing against Islington kids, if you see what I mean - the odds are much better overall.

@daffsinvase I am not entirely sure but the way I understand it works is as follows: there have to be at least 20 pupils from Islington every year (either from academic test or from music). 1000+ sit the exam and then ranked. The offer list goes up to rank 110 or so (give or take). If within these 100 or so places there aren’t 20 Islington kids, then the school will go down the ranks to find the next Islington applicant. In that scenario, a lower-ranked Islington candidate get an advantage. But my understanding (and I may be wrong) is that this never happens (at least not in recent years) because there are always 20 or so kids from Islington in the top 100 (some will be from the music route). So in practice this means that if you are applying from Islington you have to be in the top 100 (just like anybody else). It would be different if only a handful from Islington applied and/or obtained a rank lower than top 100.

Another way of putting the same point is that the level required to be in the top 20 from Islington is the same as being in the top 80 from all the other postcodes.

My kids are at Archer in East Finchley and we've found it great, both for very able oldest who is taking GCSEs this year and DS with ADHD who finds learning a bit more challenging. Small catchment though, so you will need to live near in Finchley, East Finchley or Hampstead Garden Suburb - we're not that near but just got very lucky when they changed the criteria when we were applying for oldest and I think a lot of people from our postcode had given up applying at that point.

@daffsinvase @Hatcher I have often pondered if the 20 children from Islington are counted as the siblings from previous Islington children? Making it harder for non sibling islington residents to get in?

We are in Camden but on the border so I have never looked into it in depth. Our Islington neighbours decided against DAO as the journey is hell and we have decent alternative options.

@Leopardmatches - they do count siblings in the Islington intake.

@Hatcher - I could be wrong, but it depends how you look at those numbers. Leaving aside getting in on catchment place or sibling place, if you consider the music and academic intakes - the more kids that are applying for places, the more the overall standard of candidates goes up, and the tougher the competition is.

To use your figures, it's a 1 in 80 chance versus a 1 in 20 chance, no? I'm not saying a child who gets in from Islington is always going to be less academic or musically talented than one who gets in from the other postcodes - but it probably follows that the most academic, or the most musical, in a much bigger pool of candidates will probably be more academic or musical than those from a smaller pool.

Because Islington candidates are competing against far fewer kids, they have a big advantage - it's not really a level playing field on that front.

Hi @daffsinvase . I like a good numbers puzzle! I see what you are saying but I think we do not have the numbers of how many Islington kids sit the exam. It could be 50 for those 20 places or it could be 500 for those 20 places (Islington is a big borough). But we do know that every year enough Islington candidates (18-20 depending on how many get through other routes) are ranked in the top 100, so would have gotten in even if they were from a different postcode. They would be in the top 100 anyway. These 20 don’t get any postcode advantage.

I think Dame Alice likes to perpetuate the sense that Islington applicants have some advantage, in order to attract Islington parents. It’s precisely because the school has over the years succeeded in making itself attractive to them, that this advantage is gone. To be in the top 20 of Islington applicants one has to be strong enough to have gotten in from other postcodes.

@Hatcher - I see what you're saying, but it still stands that it's easier to get in from Islington, I think? It is a big borough, but the number of candidates won't be remotely as large as the number from all the other postcodes combined. Even if Islington candidates historically rank in the Top 100 each year, 20 of those places exist for them at any rate...so it follows that it's less competitive for the Islington kids.

Anyway, don't wish to derail the thread - but I think for the OP it's worth trying to DAO if they are in Islington and their son is musical. If he plays an orchestral instrument AND has musical aptitude AND lives/goes to school in Islington, his chances are quite good I'd say. Not a slam dunk, but not that difficult. And you're not expected to be crazy grade 8 level either - they don't expect the levels that is asked for music scholarships to privates like Highgate or NLCS.

Have you looked at CFBS? Highly recommend it.

We are considering moving to be closer to the school although not sure how we would do that with owning a property.

Are you saying that you own a property where you currently live and would not be willing to sell it?

Or that you do not own, just rent at the moment?

If the latter, all you have to do is break your current lease and rent a new place within “catchment”* for the school of your choice. There is no difference in the local authority’s eyes between renters and owners for school admissions residence purposes. What IS important is that you must actually live in the house as your only and permanent home.

• it won’t be a catchment as such, as the max distance from school to which offers are made will vary from year to year, I am assuming you know this already from primary applications, info will be on Haringey website for Fortismere and AP.

I was reading about that school the other day- it’s where Gary and Martin Kemp (who grew up in Islington) went.