How hard is it to get an A or A* at A-Level in a MFL if not a native speaker

[LondonHOPDad]

Hello

I was wondering how hard it is to get a top grade at A-Level if they are not a native speaker in a MFL (Spanish or French in particular).

Just that really, does the number of native speakers push the grade boundaries up, or is it negligible really and I am worrying about nothing?

Thank you.

My son got an A at a level. now doing french snd Spanish at uni. He didn't have any native speakers in his class. State comp.

Native speakers do not always get top grades because it’s about meeting exactly what the mark scheme wants on the written sections, even if they can do the translations/orals with ease. I got top grades in 3 language A-levels albeit over a decade ago now but I scored higher marks than the native speakers that were in each of my classes because I was simply better at exams than them and knew what the examiners were looking for. And also learnt the standard rather than dialectal version of the languages.

We were asked if our A* achieving DS had lived abroad. He'd had three holidays, of a week each, in France as a small boy and had spoken no French at all!

I got an A in German A level at evening classes having learnt it as an adult.

I
Pretty easier if you're clever and do your revision of grammar and vocab

DS was we think only a few marks off an Astar in German last year. He absolutely threw himself into mastering it from the start, phone and laptop set to German, lots of watching German news and other programmes. It was a 5th (yes... slightly mad) A level for him and at the end he had to prioritise his maths, so could probably have achieved the Astar if he'd not been sitting STEP maths as well. Two visits to Germany (visiting with a hobby group) staying with a German family for about a week - one before covid when he'd only just started German, the second during 6th form when he elected to stay on his own and really tried to stick with German. There would normally have been a school trip ...

[interesting comment someone made about music. that was one of his "easy" A-levels, he's been immersed in music all his life, chorister when younger and so on. But his harmony skills have come about largely through his own habits and inclination rather than being expected of him - for years it seemed it was impossible for him to walk part a piano without playing it]

@MikeWozniaksMohawk @garlictwist I also got a high A in French 23 years ago (before the A* grade was introduced) but our experiences are not comparable to now. A combination of changing migration patterns and steep overall decline in the numbers taking language A levels means that in many languages native speakers comprise a significant proportion of the cohort, and because the qualification is graded on a (de facto) bell curve they inevitably dominate the highest grades.

My kids go to a British International School in Spain. The ‘native’ speakers all blitz Spanish in GCSE. At A level, some of them end up with a B. I think it’s pretty challenging to get an A or A star. Only one of my kids is doing it at A level. She might get an A. But she takes multiple lessons out of school with a tutor, and she is working super hard at it. My understanding is that you can be reasonably conversational/fluent, but is still a challenge to get As.

That’s interesting to know. I went on to do an MFL at uni and there were a couple of native speakers on that course (doing joint honours), neither of whom got a First but I suppose that at uni the grades are made up of more than just the language, you had the literature/culture/history modules which might even out the playing field to an extent.

I wonder if the same is happening now at degree level. Perhaps not given the high fees. Why bother spending that money when you already speak the language?

I'm not sure about degrees but I suppose I'd tend to assume there are roughly the same number of French etc degree candidates at UK universities as there always were, quite possibly more given the sharp increase in the number of people going to university.

Whereas, per the link I posted earlier & below, MFL popularity at A level has fallen off a cliff during a relatively short space of time. French has gone from 30k candidates in 1993 to 7k candidates in 2023, that's an over 75% fall.

Contrast this with e.g. maths which increased from 50k candidates in 2003 to 96k candidates in 2023. a part of the reason for this is that maths A level has changed, become a lot easier over time, has gone from being [broadly speaking] the preserve of a few eggheads back in say the 1970s to nowadays the most popular of all A levels and as such something that needs to be accessible. But it also I suppose reflects changing tastes.

http://www.bstubbs.co.uk/a-lev.htm

I was reading through the people who topped the state of NSW in each foreign language and, amusingly, every single person had a name which aligned with the language studied. Just a useless anecdote. Both my DC are native speakers of Spanish and English and from my understanding the skills to be good at English are similar to the skills to top Spanish. Once you get to A-level Spanish, you should have good enough language so it's about other skills

My best friend is German. Her DC's are dual speakers, fluent. Neither got an AStar, I think because maybe if you are native fluent, you can tend towards colloquialisms and dialects which are not necessarily perfect grammatically.

Nothing wrong at all with colloquialisms, but yes, I have heard native German speakers say things like "weil ich will ins Kino gehen" when the verb 'will" should be at the end.

But I think it's crucial that native speakers are aware that A-level in their language is by no means an easy ride. As an examiner tho I would not mark a student down for colloquial target language. Especially if they were clearly fluent.

"Native" or heritage speakers take A levels and university courses in that language for the same reason students whose first language is English take A levels and university courses in English language and literature. And they often don't get the highest marks for the same reasons every British child doesn't get an A* in their English exams.

There's no way to separate out native speakers from non-native speakers in the exams, and no justification for doing so. The point of standardized exams is that scores are output based not input based - candidates are all evaluated against the same criteria, not based on their effort or improvement. Every subject will have some students who have natural aptitude, additional background knowledge and/or helpful resources at home and plenty who don't.

Thank you again everyone for your input in the thread.

Whilst it will be hard to get an A or A*, I do feel with the changes made it feels like if you work very hard with some natural aptitude, as with other subjects, you have a chance of getting a good grade, and a native speaker can't just turn up and get an A as easily as before, even if they will of course still have an advantage.

I suspect many people will still be worried about it (and I remain a bit nervous)- it would be a shame if numbers continue to fall for MFL as posted earlier.

I got very high As at AS and A-level (>90%) on one night class a week at an FE College just before A* came in. I have no family who speak that language and never spent more than a holiday there. DD got As in two modern languages at school 15 years ago with no advantages in terms of family or experience. I wouldn’t say I’m gifted at languages, I didn’t shine at French at school and didn’t take it at A-level. I got an A at GCSE but never stood out.

Of course native speakers have an advantage but top grades are definitely achievable by non native speakers. I was far from fluent after taking my A-level. Oral output is only one part of the exam and you obtain marks or lose them on your usage of of key language that forms part of the syllabus. If you can squeeze enough correct examples for of what the questions are designed to elicit and don’t make errors in that area you will get very high marks. So a question about what you do in your free time will be looking for correct use of the present simple; adverbs of frequency; verb constructions involving liking, disliking and preference; vocabulary for free time. All those elements will have been covered by the syllabus and practised. Hit those measures correctly and you will get top marks for that element. Being able to do that doesn’t mean that you have native speaker fluency.

Good post @LightDrizzle tho I would say that A level topics no longer include free time - and in fact IMO the A level topics help non native speakers, as everyone, even native speakers, is likely to need to learn vocab and details about topics such as immigration or young people and political interest (two topics in German and Spanish).

Thanks Clary, even when I did it, free time was a GCSE topic not A-Level, it was just an easily comprehensible example. The environment was one of the topics I recall at A-level but the the language required is a bit opaque unless you’ve studied Latin or MFL, I know we retain a subjunctive relic in English but not like you have in other European languages. I think some people don’t realise that there is a specific and well thought out marking framework for oral, rather than the examiner making a more impressionistic assessment of fluency and accuracy.

I’m so sad to see MFL decline in England. Hull University used to have a thriving department that closed a few years ago. I know people who studied very happily there.

Environment now a GCSE topic actually @LightDrizzle but ofc you are right about the precise assessment framework.

Topics in French A level (for example) inc francophone music, French cinema, changing family, immigration, racism, the patrimoine, crime and punishment…pretty meaty and demanding, even of a native speaker IMHO.

Very very hard, everyone in my DD's classes (French and German) who got b or above either had parents/grandparents who were bilingual, had lived there or had a combination of a private tutor and did summer school for 4-6 weeks between year 12&13 (twin sisters) she got a c despite a* at GCSE

My experience too. And they do not realise that speaking a language fluently does not give you automatic writing skills, or even orally, the technique to 'show off' different tenses and higher end vocabulary and grammatical structures.

@mitogoshi was that the old GCSE tho? I’m asking because you quote a letter grade. IMHO the newer GCSE is much better prep for a level as it is now. Translation, essays in exam rather than CA, ditto speaking.

It's 20 odd years ago now, but I got a B in German GCSE and a B at A-Level, as a fluent speaker (born and went to school in Germany until I was 12). I think my exam technique must have been crap as there were no issues with my language!