PLS educate me, what's the BUZZ about going to INDIE schools?

[worriedbub]

Hello all

Pls just go be clear ,I'm not asking for difference between state schools and indie schools. This question is really about choosing between TWO INDIE schools

This is really a genuine question as I’m finding myself in the middle of it all as well

Pls what exactly is the real motive of going to the top indie schools, even when having an option of going to two top ones. For example choosing between St. Paul’s girls and JAGS for example , they are both academically up there,

What exactly is the main reason for parents willing to relocate and even change jobs just to be near a top indie school. For example they live near a GDST school which is also a good indie school and they have an offer but then they are really pushing for ALLEYNS/st Pauls girls and are willing to relocate near these schools?

Aside from the culture of the school, isn’t it the same GCSE and A level results they are going to sit with every other secondary school?

Do unis like Oxford and Cambridge choose from top indie schools first before going to other schools?

Is having an indie school on their CV going to help them later in life ?

I’m genuinely baffled as to what the craze is behind going for a school like St Paul’s Girls Rather than Dulwich college/GDST schools for example ?

Sorry if my post isn’t clear . Hope you get the gist😊

I think that it is impossible to generalise.

Many parents do not choose only on academic results but on many other factors (yes, there are parents driven uniquely or mostly by league tables but I would think that they are not the majority). In lots of cases parents want to ensure a minimum academic standard (what is threshold is personal too) but other factors like distance, school / year size, co-ed vs single sex, range and type of extra-curricular activities, school ethos (including whether religious or not), vibe, socio-economic and demographic mix of students and families, etc. play a major role. Also, depending on the personality of the DC, where your DC will sit within the cohort - some DC like being challenged and feel comfortable in a school that provides lots of stretch; others might get demotivated if they feel that they are not academically comfortable within their cohort. Again, how much these factors matter depends on the individual and the differences between schools - for instance, some people feel quite relaxed about distance as long as the difference is 10 minutes here and there... but not if we are talking about 30 minutes.

We, as a family factored these issues when choosing which schools to apply for (in our vicinity rather than moving) and also which one to choose from when we received all the offers. My DD was very much in the driving seat (she did a weighted average table of factors, scores and how much each factor mattered to her!) and we discussed as a family.

Thanks a lot for your view @QuiteAJourney

So apart from these factors really? What is the academic difference between JAGS/ ALLEYNS and a GDST school for example ?

Surely if they are paying almost the same fees of about £20k , our kids are taught the same curriculum isn't it

I saw someone on here recently debating whether she should forgo a scholarship at a Lower indie school to go to a more elite school with no scholarship?

I think This is what I'm trying to understand, the academic difference..As long as they are both very good indie schools , should it matter 🤔

The only difference is a marginal one re-results - ie. a GDST school such as Putney High will achieve about 90% A star / A at GCSE, whereas somewhere like Godolphin and Latymer or St Paul's will see about 97% or 98/99% respectively.

In effect, this is meaningless, because as long as your DD is in the '90%' at somewhere like Putney, or even 80% or less at other schools in the area, who cares. They will still get the same results.

However, in the league tables, a few % difference in results, or even a few decimal points, can mean that a school is positioned in the top 5 every year, or lower down, in the 20s or 30s. So minute differences are over-emphasised and this is why parents are more likely to choose SPGS or G&L, as they are perceived as more selective and higher up the league tables.

Hiwever, the same child would do equally well in any of these schools as the differences are insignificant. There are great and not so great teachers in all schools.

Also, in terms of Oxbridge, as you asked, a very bright self-motivated child would have more chance if applying from a very good state school. Contextualisation is a huge part of selection these days and the GCSEs will be contextualised against the average performance at the individual's school. So, if the average at SPGS is 11 9s, but a child applies with 10 9s and an 8, they could actually get a negative contextualised GCSE score, believe it or not. If they were applying from a much less selective independent, or a comprehensive, their GCSEs would be contextualised as very strong.

I went to a very good independent girls school to 16 and then a super selective for sixth form (mixed). The difference was night and day. The first was lovely but tolerated me doing things like playing cards in GCSE Physics because I was going to walk an A *. The sixth form I was about a quarter of the way down the year in terms of ability and had to work to keep up. Results may well have looked very similar but the atmosphere was completely different (and I much much preferred sixth form!).

@worriedbub (and adding to @matrixxx 's comments, which have many elements that I agree with).
You refer to GDST schools as if they were all the same when they are quite different on many of the factors outlined in my previous post (and quite a few of them very similar in rankings / academics to Alleyn's / JAGs) - my DD is at WHS, we did not apply to PHS (although we are close) and rejected an offer with significant scholarship from SCHS. The reasons area aligned with what I mentioned above - academic rigour but not hot house, right balance for her of stretch but not bottom of cohort (it would not suit her personality), strong on the extracurricular she favours, convenient location, inclusive ethos, diversity factors, etc. All those are things that matter to us, they may not matter the same for other parents.

Status, contacts, networking with families with similar aspirations and ethos etc. Confidence knowing that you are good enough to be accepted at the "best" school.

I'm guessing here, as my dcs are/were at state schools, but we have a lot of friends with dc at a real mix of schools, including Westminster, Habs, NLCS, and places like Berko, MTs etc. The Westminster lot, for example, wouldn't even look at MTs or Berko.

I am philosophically and politically opposed to PRIVATE schools. But if I were to have gone down that route it would have been for easily accessible sport and other extra curricular activities, and for the cultural capital.

@QuiteAJourney thank you

Yes , I know all GDST schools are not the same . I just didn't want to start breaking it down into different schools .

You are right , it really depends on all those factors ( like I said I'm also in the middle of this right now ) but leaning more towards the "lower " indie school as it's closer to us , so just wanted to be sure we are getting it right and not missing out on much of an academic difference

You get pretty much the same syllabus at a state school too.

So the difference I would expect is the ethos/feel and extra curricular.
Which is the same as we had to choose between for our good comps.

I've had DC go through LU, SPGS and G&L. If I had to summarise, I'd say LU is less 'containing' and obviously the co-ed element makes a difference in terms of the general atmosphere. Suits a very confident, resilient child. At SPGS, the parent community is more noticeably 'tiger' - not all of them of course, but enough! G&L feels less pushy, considering GCSE results are almost the same. Everything feels more down-to- earth and low-key somehow. But both girls schools definitely have a calmer vibe than LU which, although very dynamic, is a tougher environment socially, I'd say. That's just my experience though. Also, LU now has its first female head, so this may make a difference going forward. All my kids got the same GCSEs, so no difference in terms of academics or teaching really.

OP, I think that when people are paying, they like to have a strong sense of choice. So they like to agonise about the little differences and feel they are choosing something that is tailored to THEIR child in lots of little ways. Given they will spend multiple £k on it, they want it to be exactly what they want…that gives a feeling of money well spent.

To a point, independent schools are the same. Yes, the exams sat are the same. But people don’t believe the results will be the same from all. They believe that their DC might get higher results from one place than another. Of course, you never know as they only sit exams in one school, and whilst their ability means they will probably achieve similarly in any good school, a really top one might lead to slightly better results. People think about the cohort and expectations - a really top school will have less of a ‘tail’ and the kids will be learning with a cohort of similar really top students (if they can get a place) and people like the sound of that.

Unis don’t select by school. However uni places are competitive and for some courses, have an extra couple of 9s at GCSE can be a decider in who gets places. When things are extremely competitive it’s all about fine margins when there are far too many strong applicants. Parents are choosing to optimise every little aspect.

And there is undoubtedly kudos from certain schools in certain circles. Parents like to say their Dc is at X school, and even later on in life, some schools are more known in circles that are into this kind of thing. So it has an influence.

I suppose there’s a pecking order. People have to consider things like travel and practicalities and want to tailor their choice to their child, but in the end if they are paying often want the most aspirational school for their child, so are looking at that pecking order. I say most. Some are asking about 2 schools to dig into features that are important to them, such as the sport or pastoral support in the 2 schools to help them choose. Many if these things are difficult to ascertain - Open Days and marketing splurge will tell one thing but parents on the ground might tell a different story..but then each parent feeding back is just one example and not necessarily representative. Results are a more concrete measure - if you can get full and unadulterated results!

Most people seem happy with where their child goes in the end. But when people are paying they expect a process of choice and don’t see all options as equal or the closest as best. I think it flumouxes lots of people with kids in state schools where often there is no choice but the local school in reality. The delving into seemingly small things does seem odd. But Insuposoe we are talking about people with time to soend thinking about this stuff and also who are about to spend mega bucks and partly like to justify to themselves i their heads that they did due diligence in assessing the options and choosing wisely.

I think that a child sent to an good independent school such as Putney High or Ibstock is likely to come out with roughly the same exam results as if the same child went somewhere like SPGS or Westminster. They are going to be taught properly in smallish groups at all these schools.

Practical differences are that the latter are far more likely to go beyond the curriculum in lesson time pursuing a range of topics beyond or outside the examined curriculum because the teachers are confident the students will still get top marks in the examined content. They are more likely to attract teachers that are real experts in their field as they will actually enjoy teaching all the super bright children (rather than being terrified) and answering their difficult questions. There will be many interesting academic societies set up and competitions. Much of the above may help with entrance to top universities and oxbridge interviews.

There are downsides however. Your child may end up feeling stupid even though they are far from it. They may avoid choosing subjects because they think they are bad at them even if they aren't. If they are near the bottom of the cohort topics may be rushed through and leave them confused even if they would have understood the topic if more time had been spent on it. For university admissions (I think this is stupid btw) they may be judged for being below the rest of the cohort even though the school is super selective.

I'd say be really honest with yourself. Is my child either all round extremelly academic or do they have an area (languages / maths / coding / writing etc) where they are exceptionally talented and could do with extra stretch. If so super selective could be good. Though still don't think it would be worth a hellish commute.

To be fair the school admissions processes themselves are usually quite good at picking out the above.

@WombatChocolate and @CoffeeBeforeEight thank you

Very interesting perspectives

@matrixxx thank you

This is what I was trying to understand

"I’m genuinely baffled as to what the craze is behind going for a school like St Paul’s Girls Rather than Dulwich college/GDST schools for example"

Let’s consider a scenario based on OP’s question: same kid receives offers from both a top-ranking private school A and a good local private school B. Using a narrow definition of academic success, school A has 99% A-level/GCSE results with 40+ Oxbridge admissions every year, while school B has 80-90% A-level/GCSE results with 10+ Oxbridge admissions. There are no significant differences in facilities and teachers between the two schools. Why are some parents still willing to endure a long commute or uproot to relocate for school A? What is the benefit of doing so?

I'm not sure this is the majority but pretty certain a good portion of the applicants to school A does. The frenzy to pursue the top league table secondary school in London also perplexed me two years ago, not just private school but grammar as well, I can try to understand it by the following aspects.

1. A common argument (also mentioned by some PP) is that a driven/high-ability kids concentrated environment can create a magical peer effect that makes the students inspired and motivated, allowing the teacher to stretch the students to learn beyond their limits. I’m not sure this argument is applicable for the case of school A vs school B, where there is a good portion of overlap on the high academic range at the top end. On the other hand, the counter argument can typically be that school B typically has a wider range of abilities beyond academic, so the kids in such an environment can benefit more socially and culturally.

1. It is less about the kids’ education experience, but more about the competitive parents’ culture where perfect education is taken to extremes, and only the very top matters. They are influenced by social norms and peer pressure, and want to fit in with other parents who appears to have similar narrow definition of academic excellence and prestige. It is like buying a luxury product, it cannot be explained by the utility of the education alone, but also status and identity.

This is definitely further fueled by the growing prep and tutoring industry who are incentivised to create champion private schools that symbolise academic success and exclusivity status. For example, some tutors themselves "push/drive" their kids to these schools to brand the “success” story and attract more parents to join the vicious circle. This is the recent popular phenomenon for school A.

What do you think about it? Do you have a preference between school A and school B?

I agree with @CoffeeBeforeEight about going beyond the curriculum, academic enrichment etc. And the same principle on the extra curricular side. It's not about results, it's about the educational experience. I think a lot of people have a very transactional view of education - they can't see why, if a child comes out with an identical set of grades, university degree and job, there could be any other reason for choosing one school over another. But kids spend seven very formative years of their lives at secondary school - and I think those who opt for the 'elite' schools are looking for much more than a set of grades. They're looking at the journey as well as the destination, and deciding that the school offers enough differential to make it worthwhile.

There are also sometimes specialist reasons for choosing a particular school, for example specific sport or music at a high level.

From my observation, there are a few factors.

First, the top schools have only high-achieving kids so create an atmosphere where excellent grades are expected and the norm. It can sometimes be too ‘alpha’ and ‘Darwinian’ where the kids believe they are the elite even if their own grades are not straight 9s.

Second, there is a lot of status among parents for having a child at one of the ‘right’ schools. It gives kudos to the parents in elite professional jobs, like they are the right type of person.

Third, as London indies have a hierarchy, mid-ranking schools can lack the very academic kids after 11. So if your child is very academic, they may lack peers. Ironically, they would often have more peers in a good comp, than in a mid-tier indie.

Coed or single sex.
Differences: music and sport. Not all have the bandwidth to be inclusive allowing only top players to be showcased. Type of sports, some lists looks the same but if you do into details it would be different ie. Hockey vs lacrosse. Netball teams only for those doing netball camps…extra payment. Swim team, for those already in external swimming squads. Football for girls and fixtures or just football in PE options? Jazz ensemble or just orchestra, number of choirs or rock bands?

Types of school trips yearly , some are lottery, others are first come first serve and costs. If it is hundreds to UK camping trip vs French trip, which would DC prefer?

The school culture is very different in each school and it can change with new head teachers so worth checking since lots of London secondary girls seem to have new ones recently.

Curriculum, do they do science separately or is it combined sciences until at later stage. Does all pupils do triple science or just top set? Number of GCSEs, A levels and or IB, US university options or European ones ( careful since some sing about this but all are down to parents input and not much from school). Language options. STEM subjects, schools may said they do a lot but if you have 3 pupils doing further maths and 10 pupils doing physics vs 30 pupils in another school will give clue to actual picture and not just marketing.

Can’t comment on other GDST schools, but some local parents in Wimbledon are concerned about the academic rigour of WHS. I know some parents live in SW19 who prefer to send their DDs to G&L/CLSG/SPGS/LU/JAGS or KCS for sixth form in recent years.

Some may be influenced by the league table rankings vibe, but others have genuine concerns that Wimbledon is not challenging enough for the academically motivated girls. The headline league table results seem respectable, but they conceal the problems that lead to complacency among the teaching - such as girls taking fewer than 10 GCSEs, 3 A-levels, and not enough emphasis on STEM subjects. One indicator of this is the Oxbridge applicants, which have fallen to less than 5 Oxbridge offers in recent years, compared to some other GDST schools such as SHHS or even PHS/SHS. I am not sure if this is the direction that the school is intentionally taking, but it has lost some of its appeal to the local parents. The other local GDST schools are doing a better job at stretching the high achievers, not just making the league table look good.

Contextual offers are only made to DC coming from schools/ colleges which have historically sent low numbers of pupils to university. The pupil's home postcode is also taken into account if it includes deprived and disadvantaged areas. Attending a top performing comprehensive in a well to do area will get you no advantage over private school pupils.

@fieldsearl Although not the primary point of the threat, given the focus of your message on WHS (interesting in itself), I though worth posting something based in first hand experience (rather than hearsay) and recent data.

The movements to other schools in sixth form has always happened, especially in single-sex where some of the DC have been there since age 4. Surely the fact that the DDs are gaining entry in those schools is a sign of their academic formation (most of the movement is to rather academic co-eds, like KCS and Westminster).

As for the so-called lack of rigour of 9 GCSEs, many parents find attractive that the education is more than just an exam machine. The PPE addition and the more holistic education is seen as a plus rather than a minus. Same applies to the 3-4 A levels.

On Oxbridge, and in addition to making the obvious point that it is not the be-all-and-end-all but a rather (increasingly imperfect) proxy - WHS has received 14 Oxbridge offers this year which stands nicely compared with the 11 received by Surbiton (another school that you mention, although you may want to note that it is larger and, incidentally, not a GDST).

More generally, and going back to the topic of the thread, different parents seeks different things - the academic dimension is one, there are many other things to consider (as mentioned in previous posts, much more eloquently than me by others). Even when referring to 'academics', there is not a 'one-size-fits-all' for what is more desirable. Some people may put more value in more GCSEs, or in science over arts; others may think that subjects that are studied but not associated with a GCSE are as valuable (LU move would be an interesting test of that) or that languages or humanities are as valuable as science subjects. Some people might be very focused on Oxbridge destinations, others might look differently and consider whether the career advice provided suits the individual. Unsurprisingly, given a choice people choose schools that are aligned with their preferences, where they tend to find people with similar preferences. That is at least what we did and would not think for a moment that our preferences are 'better', just the ones that work for us at this stage (whilst very aware that DC change over time, and we might move at sixth form too!!).

Sorry but please can people not used the dreadful cutesy “indie” word I can’t bear it. It’s on a par with hubby. Just awful.

"Contextualisation is a huge part of selection these days"

It's a part. Not a "huge part". And if you go to a "very good state school" your offer will be the same as if you go to a private school unless you live in a significantly deprived area.

Regarding deprived area; my granddaughter lives in a well known deprived area HOWEVER her home isn’t and it’s clearly not included as such when you check the postal code.