Secondary school choice

[seagullsky]

Dd is only in Y4 but we are beginning to stress about secondary schools. Was wondering which others would choose if you were in our position. DD is very bright but doesn’t naturally push herself - will do exactly what she is asked to do by teachers and do it to the letter but not go beyond unless they specifically ask her to. She is also very rule-focused, concerned to do the right thing, gets very stressed by the idea of getting in trouble, takes any criticism massively to heart. She is also very quiet at school - hates drawing attention to herself in any way.

School A. Our catchment school. Massive urban comp (11 form entry). I hear good things about the school management, they sound ambitious and forward looking. But word on the street from parents with older kids there are significant problems with behaviour (constant disruption in lessons, vaping/vandalism around the school, kids on their phones through classes videoing others etc, major issues with attendance meaning some kids are a long way behind the rest of the class when they do show up). They don’t stream at all other than for maths. My worry is that DD will coast along not attracting any negative attention by being one of the kids who is neither struggling nor disrupting, but will massively underperform. And she will also be bored and get disillusioned.

School B: not in catchment and we may not get in but people in our area sometimes manage. One of those super strict schools inspired by the “Britain’s strictest head” model, zero tolerance for everything. Advantage is that disruption is not tolerated, DD might actually be stretched and achieve her potential. Disadvantage is that I gather you have to accept your kids will get detentions for things like glancing out of the window instead of eyes forward, leaving their water bottle at home, not having a green pen just a blue one. I worry that DD will be crushed and spend the whole day fearful of getting in trouble and the stress will be bad for her mental health.

Moving is not an option.
WWYD?

I would be worried that school A doesn't stream (I think you mean set rather than stream but anyway) as mixed ability throughout isn't great for higher achievers.

Does school B group by ability?

Yes sorry I’m not sure about the terminology but I guess I mean setting. I don’t know if School B sets as they are very vague about it on their website, just saying they aim to differentiate but also to include. School A very explicitly says they don’t set. This is also one of my big worries.

How are results at both schools?

Go and see the schools this summer/autumn.

Oh jeez, both options sound awful in different ways! Are there genuinely no other choices?

I would go and look at both schools.

Ask about how the students are grouped.

Many schools do mixed ability in year 7 (so it feels more like primary and kids get to know each other) but set more as they get older.

Then for GCSEs in the more popular subjects it is sometimes grouped by ability but often not - so if there are only 15 people choosing German those are the 15 you are in a group with.

School B sounds scary but if the behaviour is very good as a result she might find it less scary than having other students be violent in her lessons.

I would also talk to her about her feelings - take her to both open evenings.

If you can find a parent at school B to take for coffee and find out what it is actually like I would do.

My DC's school only sets for maths. And science in Year 11. Their results are the same as the similar intake close by school that sets for everything from day 1.
The key thing to ask about is how the teachers manage mixed ability. And how they manage higher ability students if you think your DD is one. My experience is that my own DD was set stretch targets and happily performed to her limits even in a class where the majority were of lower ability.

You'll find some setting by stealth (e.g. it tends to be the stronger students who choose triple science and MFL, for example) from GCSE level.

I would also ask some more probing questions as to whether a few instances of bad behaviour have been inflated to become the norm in local gossip rather than the exception. And to understand how the school deals with such behaviour.

In general I'd go for a school where my child was not stressed so would avoid School B like the plague.

School A.

DS2 isn't set in KS3. Maths is the only place its an issue (but he's a maths freak, and would be near/at the top of the top set if set).
Setting occurs naturally at KS4 - the good scientists choose triple, and generally Ebacc subjects . Those with less interest in learning choose more btec options.

I would avoid streaming like the plague - but DS1 is excellent at maths/science. Poor at languages /Essays. So streaming would have been wrong for him one way or the other.

Those with less interest in learning choose more btec options.

I don't normally like to be picky on education threads, but I would just like to point out that you can be not academic AND well behaved AND want to learn.

Yes agree with @TeenDivided as so often.

A BTEC option can be a great way forward for lots of students and they are not necessarily those less interested in learning. My very able DD who loves to read and learn did a BTEC uni course* (hahaha!) - zero exams bc she absolutely panics and fails to do well; lots of assessed coursework which she utterly aced.

Edit: sorry @seagullsky I meant to say there seem to be issues with both but I would certainly favour A over B - B sounds like it might be a nightmare for your DD. 11 forms is not so very big - 300 in a year - most schools my way are 220 a year so not much smaller. The setting is a concern. The behaviour, frankly, less so. There is poor behaviour in many schools and IME an able student is able to isolate themselves from it. That's not a bad lifeskill anyway. Plus as others suggest, it may well be exaggerated. Go and see both schools for sure.

*obvs i and she do not call it that! but it was coursework based for assessment, a model that suits certain students, rather than exam based, which suits others (DS2 for example).

We have a similar setup in my area. DD went for school A because she didn't feel comfortable with the strict discipline.

Halfway through year 7, she has found her tribe of nice, unthreatening kids. The disruption is a pain but she keeps her head down and gets on with stuff despite it.

We'll see how it goes in future years, but so far I think it was the right choice. DD appreciates the nice teachers and the generally helpful, liberal atmosphere of school A.

Similar to my DD, we chose School A. She goes to lots of clubs which automatically self-select for the students who like learning which is a nice balance.

School A. They find their tribe. Mine stick to the sporty crowd. Both would hate being in trouble for being them

The reality is that school B may well have the same issues but bury them from sight. Private schools have these issues too.

This.

A x even if theirs vandalism and stuff it’s better than having an ass for a head

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to reply.

We will of course go and visit the schools (though I had assumed we'd need to wait till next year when she is in Y5). I'm just a bit sceptical how much you can get a true impression from an open day when everyone knows they are on show.

School B's results are better than School A's - though School B has not been around that long so the data is less good. And I also suspect that it is self-selecting in terms of who decides to go to School B.

I also know a couple of people who have chosen School B for their child and are happy with it. They feel the strict rules lead to a calm learning environment where the teachers can actually teach, and that it's worth putting up with random detentions for that reason. Equally I know people who have been to visit School B and came away saying 'never in a million years'. It's quite marmite.

It is interesting that most people here would go for School A, so that's been helpful to get some insight into.

I’ve been reading about bursaries on here for private school. It’s something I’d never considered, but I wish we had for dd as she is bright. And we don’t have a huge income, just thought I’d mention it

Equally I know people who have been to visit School B and came away saying 'never in a million years'. It's quite marmite.

We heard those exact words about School B, but they came from DD, not me.

Your child will have stronger opinions & know much better what she likes/doesn't like at the start of y6 than she does now in y4. Just to warn you!

We will of course go and visit the schools (though I had assumed we'd need to wait till next year when she is in Y5). I'm just a bit sceptical how much you can get a true impression from an open day when everyone knows they are on show.

Schools typically have Open Days in September/October. I'd agree that going in Year 4 if you are literally picking between schools and wouldn't put a Plan B in place if you didn't like eihter is OTT. And if you are literally picking between 2 schools, you don't need to go until Year 6.

Although it's true that schools are on show you can pick up a lot from an Open Day. In our case we were choosing between catchment school and "very unlikely but might be worth a punt" second local school. However we much preferred the ethos of the local school (much more about developing the whole child) than second local school (where focus was about how they were seeking to constantly improve exam results. Plus we picked up things that weren't otherwise super obvious - such that at local school around 40% took triple sciene and at second local school you had to be top 10% - so one was clearly beter for science loving but not amazing DS.

In your case you can very much use the Open Day to understand just how bad low level disruption is (ask the students) at School A and how strict the behaviour is at School B.

We had a very similar dilemma. A choice between the local comp which had been in special measures but the new head is really turning it around or a high achieving but very very strict faith school. I went back and forth for a long time but in the end went with the comp. My son is bright and doing well, but most important to me he enjoys learning and enjoys school. It’s not all smooth sailing there have been a few disruptive kids but actually school seem to be dealing with that issue so it’s happening less and less. As others have said go along and visit both of these and speak to as many parents as you can and you’ll soon get a feel for what might be the right school.

Neither option sounds great for her tbh. Where are you? Some schools have entry options which might mean you can apply from further away. Are you near any grammars / grammar stream schools/ are religious schools an option?

I agree that I'd start looking for a school C if at all possible as neither sounds ideal.

School A may be fine for your DD, and there is evidence that suggests that mixed ability raises attainment for the majority of students outside of maths- personally, I would like that they are following the evidence there. A lot of schools do have these sorts of problems, and they don't necessarily impact every student, or even the majority of students.

If your DD is sensitive to criticism, and gets upset at the thought of being in trouble, I do think school B could also be a risk- the strict rules could create further anxiety and put your DD off in their own way. It's not just less well behaved students who find these environments hard to cope with.

With school A, if your DD is falling behind, you could potentially supplement with tutors as well- I know it's not ideal.

Are both schools oversubscribed? Would there be any scope to change at the end of Y7 if she e.g. wasn't coping with School B?