Probably the most irritating question ever - but should they be giving full marks for an essay?

[wiltonian]

This is a colossal humblebrag and I know this, but I need to ask the question before I ask questions at school.

DS is in Yr12 and doing an essay subject. For his last two essays, he has been given 30/30 for his essay.

Which is great, but he's a term in to the sixth form. And I'm not really happy about it for a number of reasons.

Firstly, I'd like them to keep stretching or even teaching him. Also, I've read the first one and it was far from perfect. Yes, it hits all the points you need for his subject (at least I assume it does) but there were some terrible sentences. Thirdly, he is a lazy arse and is going to stop working.

Parents evening is coming up. Do I mention any of this to his subject teacher? Or try and talk to the form teacher. Or shut up and delete this post?

*full marks

But aren't there marks for quality of writing as well as points made.

I teach science subjects at A-level which have essays with my exam board. The essays are "ladder marked" which means you put the essay into a band based on certain criteria, and then you look further at the content of the essay to determine whether you give it, say 25 marks (top of the band) or 20 marks (bottom of the band).

There are no separate marks for "quality of written communication".

For the top band for biology, the criteria is:

"Response shows holistic approach to the question with a
fully integrated answer which makes clear links between
several different topics and the theme of the question.

Biology is detailed and comprehensive A-level content,
uses appropriate terminology, and is very well written and
always clearly explained.

No significant errors or irrelevant material.

For top marks in the band, the answer shows evidence of
reading beyond specification requirements."

The main focus is on breadth and the content, rather than the style of writing. You can have less than perfect sentence structure in places and get into a high band. You can make spelling errors- as long as these don't cause confusion between scientific terms, these are usually ignored.

So, for example, if a student writes "meitosis" that would be given credit as it could be mitosis or meiosis, but if they wrote meiosiz, they would probably be given credit as it's clear what they mean.

From my experience looking at papers we have been sent back from the exam board, generally detailed discussion of a breadth of a-level biology topics gets the higher banding- a really well written essay with poor or narrow subject content wouldn't get top marks.

I've never personally marked a student 25/25 but I wouldn't not do so on principle and I wouldn't not do so based solely on spelling and grammar errors. According to the examiner's reports, every year about 0.5% of students are marked at 25/25 on the essay by the exam board- so there must be a number of teachers across the country with these students in their classes.

Which is great, but he's a term in to the sixth form. And I'm not really happy about it for a number of reasons.

OP, are you unhappy with the marking of the essay in particular, or the sixth form in general?

It sounds to me like he is a plain speaker, and the OP would rather he is more jargonist. I am in favour of plain speaking!

I also don't think it is a Mum's place to get involved in A level marking ( nicely)

I’m aware of the issue as I’ve had a very proud offspring tell me that they’ve got full marks for two essays in a row. And I have raised an eyebrow, but that’s all I’ve done. I’m comparatively uninvolved most of the time. No idea what his teachers even look like!

I do now get the difference between a marks scheme and an excellent essay so thank you; had thought we were over that nonsense at GCSE but apparently not. Hey ho. I come from a very different time…

He’s anything but a plain speaker, his sentences are insanely long which is one of the ways he could improve and I am a bit disappointed he’s not getting feedback on that kind of thing.

@Postapocalypticcowgirl Generally the school is fine. But I think in this case a bit of stretching and encouragement to extend himself would be good.

Ah OK fair enough OP. I'm probably being a hypocrite anyway as I only have a little one but I can imagine finding it hard not to have an opinion etc on my child's work when they are older as well. I'd definitely gently encourage him to ask his teacher about anything he can do to stretch himself or further improve (even beyond the curriculum) as it sounds like he's more than capable.

I’m aware of the issue as I’ve had a very proud offspring tell me that they’ve got full marks for two essays in a row. And I have raised an eyebrow, but that’s all I’ve done. I’m comparatively uninvolved most of the time. No idea what his teachers even look like!

Your child, proud of an academic achievement, told you about their perfect marks on essays and instead of praising them you raised an eyebrow skeptically and came on here referring to him as a lazy arse? Really?

tbf @wiltonian you don't know he is not getting feedback. Unless he says so. But even then... it might be verbal which, as I say, is usually better than writing something the student doesn't read.

Remember that year 12 is usually the easier work. He can expect it to ramp up.

Yes I also agree - a raised eyebrow is perhaps not a great reaction - even if he needs feedback to get better, 30/30 on an A level essay is pretty good going. He must be able. And he must have done some work for that essay.

DD never got full marks in a single essay until her A level exams when they came back as no marks deducted on most papers. Her teachers always gave feedback of how to improve. DD was very familiar with the mark scheme and did question her teachers sometimes who implied full marks never happened as how would that be helpful to her…so I understand where the OP is coming from.

Sorry, was a bit terse as was typing on public transport yesterday. I did of course praise him to the skies when he told me, the raised eyebrow was internal, and then in conversations with DH. And now on here where I have learned a lot about the way A Level essays are marked.

I think I am also coming to this with my experience of work. I've done a number of different jobs, but what a lot of them have in common is people reviewing something you've written and telling you where it can be better. Nothing is perfect, particularly a piece of writing, and can always be improved by someone else. And I think that's a good thing to know for both work and life.

On the premise that no essay should be given full marks as no essay can be "perfect" - if a paper in a STEM subject can be given full marks, indicating all questions/problems were answered correctly, the same should in theory apply to essay based subjects. The alternative would mean that essay based subject work would always be undermarked in comparison to STEM subject at least when working at the highest level.

If the subject isn't English, perhaps sentence structure isn't part of the marking scheme and content is primarily what is being assessed.

@wiltonian can you give an example of a terrible sentence?

Good God, some parents.

OP, I coasted and did fairly well until I hit A Levels, then worked my socks off on the subjects I loved and routinely got full marks in essay-based subjects. My mum is absolutely lovely, but academically hard to please and believe me, it would have done me no favours, and you are doing your son no favours at all if you "raise an eyebrow" - that's just bitchy.

You could have said "that sounds terrific and like it suits you - why not read around the subject a bit to give you a sense if it might suit you at degree level too?", instead of presuming that you know better than his teacher who you haven't met yet.

If I were him, I'd stop telling you anything about my work.

I know where you are coming from. Some thoughts as to what you might like to discuss with the teacher that could be useful:

Is there anything he could work on in his writing style to ensure he continues to get all the marks / make it as easy as possible for the marker to see that he has earned the marks?

Is he potentially considering an Oxbridge application? If so he might need to submit examples of his work. What should he be working on to lift his level even higher than currently? [I'm not sure if there are other courses where essays might need to be submitted]

Hopefully questions along these lines will be constructive on all sides. Hope he does continue to enjoy 6th form and do well!

@AllProperTeaIsTheft
if it’s full marks, it implies it’s perfect!

No it doesn't. A mark doesn't imply. It is an assessment of how well the student did what the task required, according to the markscheme. If, for example, perfect spelling is not a requirement of a task, and is not included in the markscheme, a student should not be penalised for not having perfect spelling.

I do now get the difference between a marks scheme and an excellent essay so thank you; had thought we were over that nonsense at GCSE but apparently not. Hey ho. I come from a very different time…

You think it would be better if students' work and exams were marked on the basis of the subjective impressions of the individual teacher, rather than the students actually knowing what is expected of them, and feeling confident that their work would be marked fairly and in the same way as other students doing the same exam subject?

I come from a different time too. I've been a teacher for nearly 30 years. Markschemes are not new.

Well you can't set an essay in which it's impossible to get full marks.

If he hit all the points and would have got full marks in an exam with it, then of course he should get full marks.

@Maybeicanhelpyou I'm glad it's not just me, that's exactly what I think. With a side order of, the A Level isn't everything so how about teaching him how to write a better essay at the next level. Or just write better sentences?

I'm also wondering if you have some reason to think that his teachers are going to say 'Righto. He got full marks in one essay. Clearly our work is done here!' I'm sure they will continue to teach him and push him to do the best he can. As for 'The A Level isn't everything' - that's easy to say if you aren't the one responsible for covering the syllabus. You say he's lazy? Maybe he should be reading around the subject and extending his own knowledge.

You'd hate A level maths, we used to be able to get 110/100.

It is a short step from your philosophy of "everything can be improved" to your victims feeling "nothing is ever good enough" and switching off totally from trying.

It's also very different writing an essay as homework with all your books and notes and as long as you need, to doing it in 30 minutes in an exam hall! I have occasionally had to tell very diligent students to set much stricter time limits on themselves when writing practice essays at home. It's very useful for them to know how much they can write in a set time, then try and write brilliant essays that are approximately that length!

Nothing is perfect, particularly a piece of writing, and can always be improved by someone else.

As an English teacher, I have frequently read poems, moments in a novel or lines in a play which I think are absolutely perfect and could not be improved. And if you’ve never felt that yourself, how incredibly depressing.

I think I am also coming to this with my experience of work. I've done a number of different jobs, but what a lot of them have in common is people reviewing something you've written and telling you where it can be better.

I don't know what field you in, but in my field (and I suspect fields outside of literary ones) as long as a document is "good enough" i.e. it is comprehensible and covers all the necessary points it will "pass" reviewers.
This is partly because a lot of people writing documents will not have English as a first language or will be neurodivergent, but mostly because "good enough" generally is "good enough" in a work situation.
So actually - not dissimilar to A Levels.

I'm with you op, you can always improve plus I'm very aware of teenager psychology!