Secondary schools in England

[Mum145897]

I'm not quite sure where to start with this but really hoping someone can help. We might have to relocate to England from Scotland for work (we were thinking greater Manchester but also considering areas around London).

We have 3 children, 1 in primary and 2 in secondary (I think they would start years 9 and 10 in September, although I think we'd want to put the year 9 down a year). The younger one has cerebral palsy and is doing OK in mainstream but is supported and needs additional help with reading (he's also visually impaired). The older one has suspected ASD and is very academically intelligent and gets upset if he's not doing complex tasks. He is due to pick up an extra Nat 5 (GCSE). He doesn't make friends at school.

In Scotland the system seems to be quite simple. Other than private schools, there are no entrance tests and you just go to the catchment school. If you buy a house in a good catchment, you are sorted and if the child has additional needs, they are given the support they need. They currently go to one of the best state funded schools in Scotland.

I am really confused by the English system. The top schools in the areas we were looking at in Manchester seem to have grammar schools and so seem to be closed off, certainly to the younger one which seems very unfair.

Is everywhere in England like this? Is there a way to get all your kids into a good school, even if they have differing abilities? How do you know if you buy a house which school they'll go to?

Any help would be very much appreciated as I'm at the point now where I think we might be better staying in Scotland and taking a step back in careers or taking a career break, which then feels like we'd be having to compromise what we want just for a school...

Hi OP I hope I can help a bit and I am sure others will too.

Firstly this: grammar schools and so seem to be closed off, certainly to the younger one which seems very unfair.
Yes. That's the grammar school system. I agree that it is very unfair (and I went through it myself). I presume the vocal people who are in favour of it have bright children who would pass the exam at age 11.

The good news is that despite what the Tories (and some other people) say they want, grammar schools are in fact relatively rare in England and exist just in small pockets. Some private schools call themselves grammar schools but are fee-paying; some state comprehensive schools are called grammar schools for historic reasons, so watch out for those.

But there are loads and loads of places in England where the vast majority of dc go to state comps and do fine.

The issue you will have is that as in-year entrants, you will only be offered places at schools with vacancies in the relevant year. This may not be the same school for all DC. It's also quite unlikely to be the most popular schools in an area for obvious reasons.

Usually you are likely to get a place at your catchment or closest school. So bearing in mind your primary-aged child, it's a good idea to move close to a good school. You can check Ofsted, school results and canvas local opinions (or ask on here if you know an area).

This won't guarantee a place at the school for your older DC unfortunately.

I would urge you if you do move to do so in time for your oldest to start year 10 in September as that is when the main body of work starts on GCSEs - exams taken at age 16, end of year 11. It's much harder to pick up halfway through year 10 for example.

I am sorry that I don't know the areas you mention so cannot advise on where would be good. But there are many excellent schools in London and also I gather in Manchester. Hopefully others can help with specific areas.

Grammar Schools are not all over the U.K. they only exist in certain counties. Have a look at this wiki page at the map which makes it easy to see where the Grammar Schools can be found and a list of Grammar Schools, which helps to identify which schools to avoid if you don’t want a Grammar School. Also watch out for ‘Selective’ schools, they select which students they’ll allow to attend, usually this is based on a child’s academic performance.

One piece of advice with your children’s needs; def do NOT consider Buckinghamshire! My kids both have Autism and ADHD and are academically able, or what’s considered ‘more able’ or ‘higher ability’ and frankly finding a school that can accommodate both of them has been a challenge. Most schools that cater for SEN are aimed at lower academic abilities, mainstream schools can’t cope with the SEN, even the schools with ARP (that’s a dedicated SEN department) seem to be unsuitable for academically able students with autism and/or ADHD. There are lots of reports of bullying aimed SEN children by students and teachers in schools including those with the dedicated SEN provisions.
Our kids have been attending schools in Oxfordshire and it seems provisions are better there, but we’re having to commute our children half an hour each way, because we never anticipated any of the SEN provisions we would need when we moved into the home we live in all those years ago, when our children weren’t diagnosed yet. We both work for ourselves from home, so have that freedom, but even so, I would’ve preferred to have lived nearer the schools so there would be school buses or other transport options available for us.

Your best approach would be to select a county based on the map avoiding the Grammar Schools, go on their county council website and look for their Local Offer and SEN provisions. That should give you some idea of what the options are for your children’s specific needs and then you whittle it down from there. There are really good non-Grammar schools and some are even better, we have one local to us, but again, they didn’t suit my kids’ needs. I wish they did as it would’ve made our lives so much easier!

@Mum145897 If you give people an idea of the areas around London you're considering, and/or your budget, you'll get plenty of advice here about areas where there are excellent comprehensive schools. There are also many existing threads on the subject.

I live in Richmond upon Thames where there are no grammars and all the state schools are good or outstanding, but it will cost you an arm and a leg to live here (and some of the good secondaries are considered more good than others). There are also super-selective grammars within reasonable travelling distance in Kingston in case one of your kids is that way inclined, but as they take from a wide area there are generally just a tiny number of kids from each primary who go there (usually following some investment in tutoring). Also, their value-added results for high attainers are not generally better than the best comps.

I live in Trafford in greater manchester and think this may be where you've been looking at moving to.
I have one in a grammar school and one in a non-grammar school, and although the non-grammar obviously doesn't get the top top grades (as all the highest achievers have been creamed off) I feel that it's still an excellent school with great teachers and pastoral care. My daughter is in yr 9 and it's maybe too early to say but I think she'll get good (7+) grades in her gcses-that's me comparing her to where her sister was at the same stage.
My neighbour's son is at the same school and is autistic and she's delighted with how the school have supported him.
The only difference I can see with grammars are that there are fewer disruptive children there. There are a few obviously! Feel free to DM me if you have any questions

Yes there are ways to make sure your kids go to a good school but they mostly involve knowing the system inside out and either having a house in the right place at the right time or getting preferential admission to a faith school based on church attendance.

Not all areas of England have grammars.

The way the system works here is that if you are moving into an area from elsewhere the local authority has to find your kids school places. They will almost by definition be at schools which have spaces and are therefore either new or very few people want to go there.

It is quite normal if there are multiple kids in the family that has been moved in for them to be placed at different schools. You then can try and transfer them so they are all at the same school to minimise school run.

The system for dealing with additional needs is also not simple.

In England it is quite hard to access support unless your child has an EHCP. If your child has obvious need (CP is likely to fall into that category) then this should not be too difficult but there will be paperwork to be completed in order for the school to access extra money to support them.

It can take up to a year for the paperwork to be completed and agreed and some local authorities are currently refusing all the paperwork for any EHCP because they are bankrupt which means you would need to go to tribunal with lawyers to get it through.

In addition, schools can refuse to admit your child if they believe they cannot meet their needs. This is quite common, largely because disabled children cost a lot of additional money to educate and it is getting harder and harder for schools to access the money.

If you visited/emailed them you would be able to get a sense of how disability friendly they are.

This is all extremely helpful. Thanks so much to everyone for taking the time. I feel like this is a bit of a nightmare situation I'm in (my husband has already been through a restructure at work and now has a role which requires a lot of travel to Manchester and London and I think my role in Scotland is also going to go, and the job market here is so flat - I feel the SNP have done this) but there's a lot of useful information for me to start investigating.

@decaffed, I was thinking a commuter town to London, eg in Hertfordshire. Not very sure on budget yet but we don't want a huge mortgage so not looking to pay London prices (millions). We'd just paid our mortgage off here (house is worth about £600k) but realise we'll need to take out a mortgage again if we move down South.

@postitnot, it was Trafford I'd been looking at. Thought it seemed perfect for commuting into Manchester and also down to London and to Scotland (and it's a lot cheaper than London) then noticed the grammar schools. Your post is really helpful.

Thank you again everyone - so kind of you to help.

PS getting support for additional needs children is so tough. It's been a battle here too, but everything is in place now so the thought of starting again....😓

I live in prime Hertfordshire commuter belt. The state secondaries around Harpenden and St Albans are very good generally but as for SEN provision the impression I get is it’s a more mixed bag (my kids are at primary). I have a friend whose son has ADHD, possible autism and PDA and she is just gearing up for what she expects to be a very long battle to get him an EHCP. Sorry not to be more positive, I don’t know how this compares with other areas in England but I think the system is fairly broken 😞

You might want to ask MN to change the title of your post to include a reference to advice on SEN schools and ECHP process as there are lots of people better placed to advise than me.

Also if you are interested in St Albans and Harpenden join the St Albans Mums Facebook group as you should be able to get advice on specific schools there. Good luck.

Only Trafford has grammars out of the whole of Greater Manchester. They also have the worst shortage of places due to the number of families moving there including from HK.
I'd actually start by deciding a rough area & budgets & then suitable school for youngest. There's loads of decent schools around and you can always get tutors to support if neede