Advice on how to raise issues of disruptive class, and what to expect

[Lovehappychildren]

Hi, looking for a bit of advice on this. My DS started secondary in Sept. Well regarded school, great ofsted and results. He has however struggled with the transition, making friends. He is terrified of getting detention. He has finally made a few friends in his class, and things are looking up. He is a very conscientious student, and genuinely wants to learn, especially in his favourite subjects as he does want a career in that field somehow though this may change.
He is upset tonight as he said that the class is very disruptive. I was aware of this as the pastoral lead if have spoken to also said the same. He said he feels that his learning is being impacted by this, and won't be as successful in his chosen subjects.
The disruptive kids have been warned, had detention and taken out of class but it keeps happening. I am going to request a meeting with the year head next week to discuss this but what can I reasonably expect? He wants to move forms but he will be back to square one friendship wise. They may not have space to move him.
Any advice appreciated.

What do you want to happen? Schools are quite limited in what they can do! If they’re applying their behaviour policies etc consistently…that’s about it. I’m not saying don’t have the meeting but be very clear about what you want as a result otherwise it’s just a pointless moan about things the year head will already be well aware of…they’re dealing with the disruptive kids every day after all!

Fwiw my ds is in a huge secondary and we are just encouraging him to work really hard so he can stay in top sets as there’s much less disruption there. Best we can do in an overstretched, really challenging sector.

Another option is private school?

I'm afraid most secondary schools have disruptive kids, and it's very hard for schools to eliminate that behaviour. There's a limit to what they can actually do about it, unfortunately.

A move to a new tutor group might well help and be possible, but from his point of view it would be a big deal so he needs to understand it might be difficult. Often schools start out teaching them in forms in Y7 then mix them more and more over time. The tutor group may not matter very much once they start mixing the classes. It would be good to understand how long it will be that his day is defined by his tutor group.

I think you both need to give the school a chance to deal with this. Year 7 starts out as mixed ability teaching just about everywhere so moving forms wouldn't mean there was less disruption, there might even be more.

There will be things happening behind the scenes that your DS won't know about and you will not be told about due to data protection.

Eg you don't know if the disruptive kids have had their parents contacted, or what is going on in their lives or whether they have undiagnosed SEN.

Lots of children with SEN manage to fly under the radar at primary and the secondary has to pick up the slack.

Or maybe they don't have any sen issues, they're just badly behaved?

Exactly. Why is bad behaviour automatically attributed to pupils with SEND?

Of course they could be.

And there could be a couple of each in every class.

OP this sounds pretty standard for a state comp (secondary teacher here). The school are unlikely to move him to another tutor class for this reason.

However, if you must contact the school then at the very least focus on individual subjects and provide a number of specific examples of the disruptions. I would start with the Head of Year. Give the benefit of the doubt in your email - it may well be that those subjects are being taught by a first year ECT.

Things may well improve when they start setting, do you know when this will be?

ps. Bright bored children can be as disruptive as struggling not understanding children. My DD with SEN had issues with others who could chat and work, whilst she need quiet to focus.

Where it's done thoughtfully and well, I have always found behaviour better in mixed ability classes as it goes (30 years teaching....).

I agree that moving tutor groups won't necessarily be a magic bullet, though.

Is there any evidence this is actually impacting his learning or is it a panic that it might? Really good kids often get very anxious about other students' poor behaviour, understandably so - but partly this is sometimes a feeling of lack of control of a situation and may not actually have the adverse effect the child thinks it does.

@Piggywaspushed genuine question, how could it NOT impact learning? I appreciate it might not impact it that much, but surely there’s no situation, ever, where a less disruptive class wouldn’t be better for learning?

Of course it will but maybe not to panic stations setting is what I meant. There are very few perfect classes (not even the mythical top sets and not even in private schools) and often diligent students do well regardless of the behaviour of others because otehr factors also play their part - as examples , supportive homes, homework completion, standard of their own classwork. I mean I am sort of imagining it perhaps isn't as extreme as the child thinks it is - or the parent - but it could of course be really bad. It does sound at least , though, that the OP's DS isn't getting sucked into mob mentality which is good.

Year 7 is a transition year and students may well settle down but I'd hope it would be more disruptive pupils that get moved out of classes and redistributed wisely tbh and this may be a solution already being explored.

My daughter has recently had the same issue. I emailed head of year as it was really getting to my daughter, teachers were punishing whole class for the handful. (One teacher wouldn't let them start a test until they were all quiet so she had to do a test in less than 10mins when it should have been 20).The head of year had a chat with her and offered her another class, still early days but she said already it is much better and has less disprutive children. Its so stressful with friendships too, as my daughter has same issue.

Thank you all for your responses, they have been very helpful. I definitely have some examples of the same kids getting up and wandering around the class, shouting out and talking. In science, the lessons are very much stop start as the teacher is constantly telling the kids to be quiet, warnings, then giving detention. He said it makes listening really difficult as often the teacher carries on talking while kids are talking, so he can't hear. I will chat to the year head, see what they suggest. I won't go in all guns blazing but do want to get my point across that my ds is having his learning disrupted.

This is why my daughters made the effort to revise for their 11 plus and managed to get into an academically selective grammar school, so they didn’t have to go into the shitty feeder school with useless teachers like these. In our school when a pupil is disruptive in class they get sent to isolation to do their work. If they’re disruptive in there, then the parents get called in for a meeting and they get sent home from school. When both DD’s started in year 7 there was one particulary repeatedly disruptive pupil in their years. They pretty much lived in isolation, I know one parent was called into school up to 4 days a week. Both pupils left the school in year 8, whether that’s the school removing them or the parents eventually pulling them out I’m not sure. There’s lots of things schools can do to stop disruptive pupils literally ruining their classmates eductions, so I don’t get all this ‘dunno, what do you even expect them to do’?

This is the reality of teaching a practical subject to overly large groups!

Poor behaviour IS for a reason. Undiagnosed SEN, stuff going on at home but a lot of it in secondary is because students find the work too hard. I had a year 11 class last year where a significant number were finding the subject too hard, however much I simplified it and scaffolded it.

It's worse in year 7 because they're in the "forming, norming, storming" stage of figuring out a new school.

Your son should keep studying and not concern himself with others as far as possible.

no matter what class he is in in secondary there will be disruptive students. Year 7-9 are notoriously like this because of hormone changes and kids pushing boundaries. I've worked in secondary for 21 years.

This is spectacularly lacking in awareness of the many other factors that will influence the type of behaviour typically seen in a selective grammar vs a school that takes everyone. Of course behaviour can be a challenge anywhere but you are more likely to find engaged, academically able (therefore better suited to school environment), less SEND, engaged, invested parents who support with learning and behaviour at the grammar than in the comprehensive. Naturally because they’ve self selected by being motivated enough to take and work for (& pass) the test.

Welcome to high school ! It all sounds normal to me for a state school. My experience is that setting helps although not all subjects are set and it takes a while for those that do set to start. At our school the most disruptive eventually children move into SEND provision (in our case within the school), or have part time schooling, or sadly get suspended and eventually expelled, although often new children in y8/9 are those that been expelled from other schools. It’s the main reason people go private in my personal opinion. Hugely challenging environment for all. My child sounds a bit a like your son and I just have to say ‘get your head down and get on with it’. She’s much older now and this has largely been successful. Unfortunately in life you need to learn to manage to be around those whom are difficult to be around. I would encourage him to find pleasure in clubs / activities aswell at school.

Is it worth moving classes or forms?

This was one of the main reasons we starting homeschooling. Never ending disruption and rubbish classroom dynamics. My child is excelling now, happy, making home educated friendships.

Sadly for children is their lack of autonomy often means they end up having to shut up and put up, unlike adults who can assess their workplace and move on to other jobs to facilitate personal interests and wellbeing

The Head of Year won’t be able to say much as it sounds as if the behaviour management in the school is fundamentally flawed and teachers aren’t supported in sanctioning or classroom management. I would consider moving your child to another school.

To add, does the school run a transition programme - at the school I work at we do and it can make a huge difference for children (a significant number) who are finding the move a bit tricky. A change of tutor group is also not unreasonable- children see their friends at break.

I'm a teacher and agree with much of what's been said. I think that parents on the whole have no idea just how much disruption and bad behaviour there is. I wish they knew and made a massive issue of it. Something might start to change. The curriculum is hugely at fault in my view and changes on that front would be very slow but as things stand the lie that it's just a few kids disrupting continues.