Are London schools getting rid of students they don't want?

[RB1981]

I've got several friends who are convinced children are being bullied out of top London state secondary schools before the 6th form, because their grades weren't 'good enough'. Do you think this could be true? Schools like Camden School for Girls, St Marylebone and St Aloysius do seem to get less diverse in their sixth forms, I don't know about some of the other top performing schools. But maybe it's just that kids from certain backgrounds are less likely to take A levels. Either way, interested to know if other parents have thoughts or experiences on this.

What do you mean by "bullied out"? Is this after they have been accepted to sixth form?

All state schools are allowed to be selective in sixth form, and they are also allowed to have specific entry requirements for different courses e.g. they can say 5 x Grade 5 for general sixth form entry, but you need e.g. a 6 at GCSE science to study that science at A-level and so on.

I wouldn't call this bullying, and I'd say to a greater/lesser extent it happens at every sixth form across the country. A-levels/Level 3 study are not right for every child, and in London I would assume there are some great alternatives, although of course I may be wrong!

If students are being pushed out after having started their A-levels, that's a very different issue, and shouldn't be happening in a state school.

Schools are still funder per pupil, but that funding drops post 16 (generally, there are some factors that complicate it post 16).

In many schools, the lower school subsidises the sixth form to an extent, but the sixth form is a flagship which helps the school recruit- hence wanting to keep students who will do well!

DD is at a London comprehensive that only has enough sixth form places for a quarter of the year group.

Currently you need a minimum of six 7-9 grades including English and Maths, and the subjects you intend to take, to even be considered for a place.

So I expect that does 'manage out' a fair number of the kids they might not want in the sixth form by default, but if kid manages to get the grades then I can't see that they could?

Couple of high performing schools near us simply don’t enter children who aren’t going to get top grades.

not unusual for kids who get B’s in a’level mocks to not be allowed to sit the actual exams.

If they get the grades, they have to be allowed to stay on. The school will have set the bar high to manage the numbers. If more students meet the grades than expected then they would have to go over numbers. (However, they are allowed to tell students that the course they want to do is full and offer them an alternative course that they may not want to do - that's a less visible way of managing numbers).

If they don't get the grades, they aren't being "managed out", they're just not getting in.

They could get into trouble for this if families complained.

Some students start with 4 A Levels then drop one if they struggle - it's generally considered to be better to get high grades in 3 A levels than lower grades in 4 - but dropping an A level is usually a mutual conversation/decision between the student and the school rather than anyone being "bullied".

No idea if its different now, but 20 years ago the Kent grammar I attended pushed all of us to do 4 AS levels and drop one for A2. I couldn't decide what to drop - I liked and was getting good grades in them all. Our English Lit teacher told us that our workload would be roughly the same as it is now, so if we were managing then it was OK to consider 4...

The HOY sat the whole year in the common room and got us all to call out the subject we were dropping in front of everyone. I was the first to say I wasn't dropping anything. The HOY sniggered and said "good luck with that".

The same school asked my friend to leave halfway through year 12 as they felt she wasn't coping. She had dyspraxia and some other SEN but was doing fine (and this was a top grammar so she wasnt tanking her grades...). What they meant was, they werent prepared to support her and were worried she would wreck their year results.

Her mum squeezed her into a school 30 miles away, the commute was brutal. She ended up with 6 A2 levels all at A grade, not the 3 offered as standard at my school. My school cared only about league tables and not supporting individual students.

Interesting how this works in a county where schools finish at 16 like mine. The colleges are all effectively selective (minimum grades and interviews, sorry ‘course advisory sessions’) and I wonder how this tallies with the legal requirement for children to be in some form of education or training until 18.

I think this has always been the case in London. Some of the very top - like QE Boys - have fewer places in 6th form than in GCSE and the entry criteria is internal exams not GCSE results. Others with sibling or distance policies have high entry criteria so many of the “comprehensive” aspects are removed in the 6th form.

The system has changed in England. A levels are no longer modular - they now have a single set of exams at the end rather than being split into A1 and A2 exams. AS levels still exist, but fewer schools offer them.

In Wales, A levels are still modular.

But it isn't "bullying" to have an academic sixth form that is only suitable for a proportion of students, is it? To call it that just demonstrates a victim mentality.

Where did I mention bullying @pearandplum ? I was saying that yes schools prune their intake in London and it has been that way for a long time.

The OP's question was "I've got several friends who are convinced children are being bullied out of top London state secondary schools before the 6th form, because their grades weren't 'good enough'." and you answered: "I think this has always been the case in London...".

Apologies if you were replying to someone else, not the op, but it wasn't clear.